Which does not surprise me in the least.

How does it feel to be so Deadly WRONG, BJG?!!

in just enough voter minds and if she couldn't swing doubt, then apathy would do.



These people have absolutely NO shame.

fucking Blowhard Grifters.

Aloha, Maru

She earned it.

So others could hear and they were already on the fence so they sat it out.

but don't say that all who critiqued certain decisions means that we did nto vote for her, and did not commits to vote for her.

It was that “on the fence voters” were maybe overwhelmed by ‘critques’ (many of which were not factual and many of which were strawman arguments) so they got discouraged and stayed home.

One liberal friend believed the relentless fact-free critiques from the left and right that she was ‘crooked’. He didn't stay home though, he voted Trump.

that there was no difference between her and putin's Puppet, in the Swing States bc of all the Lock her UP Hate PILED on Hillary for NO GD Reason..

Link to tweet

and I pleaded with them.

damage, the "Democrats Ignore The Working Class" and "Democrats Are Corrupt By The Campaign Contributions Everyone Receives" things will never go away.

Hillary was personally responsible for economic anxiety because of 90s trade policies:

"The people of Detroit know the real cost of Hillary Clinton's free-trade policies."

"Or Senator Clinton might want to apologize to the millions of workers in this country who lost their jobs because of the disastrous trade agreements she supported."

(Especially silly to hear Michael Moore repeating it because his documentary "Roger & Me" about GM shutdowns was from the 80s when companies moving factories overseas became common -- because myth of "Democrats Are Neoliberals With Same Economic Policies As Republicans" requires blaming them for the deindustrialization and shift to a service economy that began in the 70s.)

Hillary personally responsible for the Iraq War:

"Maybe Secretary Clinton might want to apologize to the families who lost their loved ones in Iraq. Or for the massive levels of destabilization we are now seeing in that region."

and asking her to address flaws that the GOP would, and sadly did exploit

Hillary could have won 2016 if she simply hit the issues head on instead of listening to the terrible advice that the mark penns, and some other "democrats" I cannot name thanks to the tos , could name.

What issues didn't she hit "head on"? Could you please explain?

The fact is, many people were hurt by outsourcing, and the frank failure of Nafta, which enraged many in the USA and in Mexico. If she had realized that there needed to be a plan B instead of things going on as they were, she could have disarmed Trump. Yes, the ole south and heartland were full of bigots, but she had the means to announce that Outsourcing and Nafta needed to be changed, and made the case that SHE was the only one with enough cred to do it. Why she did not, I do not understand, although I suspect certain people I cannot name thanks to the DU TOS.

As far as middle east policy, did we have to say stuff like "we came, we saw, he died" after Khadffi was killed? She made it clear that the middle east policy was going to keep steamrolling along, to the point where it took Biden to even discuss ending the war in Afghanistan. I can hate Trump's mishandling, but he did see that the US was tired of fighting a war that did not benefit us, which was a continuing of BAD GOP policies. Obama killed Ben Ladin, we could have done the victory lap and come HOME, which could have bolstered the fact that Democrats got things done. Instead, she said the head of Syria "must go" which almost became yet another war.

lastly, as for bernie, why did the people who ran the campaign try to duck him, as if she could nto have smashed bernie like a glass tube. Berrnie would have made an ideal sparing partner, as she would have demolished the fact that he had not accomplished much, instead, her handlers did the stupid clandestine nonsense.


Note, I voted for her, and would vote for her again, just as I voted for Obama, just as I did for biden, and yes, frankly, I would vote for a Yellow dog over ANYTHING the gop offered. I do not care if a choirs of angels said "the gop guy is not so bad" I would VOTE DEMOCRAT!, FULL STOP! But because I believe in Hillary, I expect her not to shoot herself in the foot, especially since, sadly, many of those that caused her problems never were called out for THEIR drivign of Hillary into a ditch.

She even had a basic income plan, Alaska for Americans, but couldn't make the numbers work. Elizabeth Warren had plans where the numbers worked, too, but people like populist promises that can't happen. You know, "progressives who like to get things done" like Hillary and Warren and many others. Populists tried to make 90s trade deals Hillary's fault and the reason for outsourcing (which began in the 70s and was especially bad in the 80s, before NAFTA -- and automation, not trade deals, is the most important factor) and lie about the TPP being a diabolical plot against American workers ("neoliberal" like idiots say the ACA is supposedly proof of).

So, as I said in post #64, the "Her Is Warmonger" thing.

People kept repeating "flawed candidate" because they were told that, not that it was true.

Then why the hell did she shun Warren so much? I can tell you I am Warren Democrat, and if she picked her as the Veep instead the the Milquetoast candidates, I would have been shooting fireworks off. Again, her campaign nixed that, and if not for the tos I would give an essay, but I do not want to get a pizza.

AS far as warmonger, well, you have evidence against that? Did she say "assad must go?" Did she say "we came, we saw, he died?"

Sorry, it is not that we expected a perfect candidate, it is that we expected someone who could address those flaws, instead of letting her advisors drive off the cliff. Again, the very very very WORST Democrat must be favored over the GOP, period. Part of that help is to say "Hillary, why are you doing this? This is the asort of stuff you used to MAKE FUN OF, and I know, because I was laughing alogn with you!

Someone with similar religious views. I think people don't realize how important religion is to Hillary. I was disappointed.

which I am happy about

Sorry, that is not either a small d or big D democratic way of thought. If we did not ask her to please stop Listening to those that wanted us to be republicans with a coat of paint, we would indeed have lost everything we supposedly stand for.

Kindly, please try to avoid putting words in my mouth I didn’t say.

My post was very very clear that I was talking about untruths, disinformation, misinformation and fact free CT.

Additionally don’t insinuate that being against lies and disinformation about Democrats is equivalent to undemocratic way of thought.

Thanks in advance and have a good weekend.

And if you did NOT VOTE AGAINST FASCISM and for HRC you are a murderer imo and do not deserve to be here. My father is dead because of those people, and this country is hanging on by a thread.

No way I will ever forget about that or stop calling these frauds out.

Ceased...and Hillary Clinton was not a Republican and never asked us to be Republicans...my nephew in Georgia is on CHIP-HEALTH CARE THE ONLY TYPE HE COULD GET...something she got passed when Pres. Clinton was in office. As for your GOP with a coat of paint garbage. I will say this. We do not live in a progressive country...any candidate must move to the middle in a presidential election or a state-wide election in order to be elected.

And this is Democratic Underground we support Democrats...your words about Hillary Clinton are truly awful: and extremely unfair. She was always a big D candidate. We need to vote Democratic in every election even if our candidates don't meet your 'criteria' period end of the story. And some of the responses to this thread indicate that some even after the Trump disaster have not learned the lesson of 16.

I would nto care if Hillary suddenly became a werewolf, I would have voted for her. I do not care of in 2024, we nominated a vampire, I would ask what blood type they preferred. And I dio agree that once the primary is done, it is, and was the duty to go full steam ahead. It as true before Trump, It was true in the mythical age of moderate, (like when I voted against MCain, and even used HIlarry's "now way nop how No Mcain" in arguments.)

I never said "Gop with a coat of paint" I said Hillary knew better than those that were trying to sell that idea, which sold her OUT!

I will vote for any candidate in the General in 24 too. I hope it is Biden as he has an incumbent advantage. My apologies for the misunderstanding, and I agree completely with what you said. Mea Culpa.

was especially devastating and we, and they, know who they are,

as well. You don't attack the only candidate who could have stopped Trump.

vote for her...may they roast in hell.

... and claimed that abortion shouldn't be that big an issue.

'Identity Politics' is what it was called.

…or dies of septicemia from a pregnancy gone horribly wrong.

I hope they never have a peaceful moment again.

I hope they never have a peaceful moment again.

And I remember debating with people in a forum (elsewhere) about that very same thing, warning what would come about should the GOP prevail. For which someone called me "chicken-little."

And I'll be damned if EVERYTHING I predicted, warned about, and feared didn't come to pass... and THEN some.

We were just talking about it all. Every terrible, and horrific thing since then is all on them, those who should have known better. It was so obvious.

Jill Stein received 31,072 in WI and 51,463 in MI.

third parties running for president, as is their Constitutional right to do so. Stein has run in several elections. If the Blue wall didn't hold I fail to see that it's anyone's fault other than the people who chose to vote for Stein. According to the Constitution any voter has the right to vote for the candidate of their choice.

No one is owed any vote. The people make their choice. It does not matter that Stein got those votes in those 3 state. Those total votes don't come close to almost 3 million votes and that is how many more votes Hillary got than Trump.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly the point of the OP -- too many voters on the left made a choice that helped make it possible for Donald Trump to become President of the United States.

There were of course many factors which combined to make that possible. People either staying home or voting 3rd party was certainly one of those factors.

Would Trump still have won if no voters on the left cast a 3rd party ballot or left the POTUS box unchecked.

That Yale study suggests the answer is Yes, though absolute certainty cannot be resolved.

I don't agree with the point of the OP if its purpose is to cast recriminations at voters who (hopefully) realize they made a mistake.

We need everyone to wake up to the realization that Trump and today's Republican Party are an existential threat to democracy and human rights.

I'm pretty sure that real DUers already know that.

If we're going to play that game, party voters on the left share some of it. In addition to their own votes, how many others did they influence (possibly swing voters they knew) by trashing Hillary?

We will never know, nor would knowing change anything.

Change going forward is what's important.

Our paths intersected over many years on anti-right wing and pro-social justice issues. There was nothing “swing” about them.

But the shit they believed and purveyed about Hillary Clinton the year she was up against Trump was pure RW propaganda and nothing would sway them. These were grown people, not kids, and me talking about the SCOTUS and Roe fell on deaf ears. One of the stupidest memes was, “She knows where the levers of power are.” Well eff me, isn’t that kind of a BFOQ* in Washington ?

So my friends voted their brainless consciences, and joined the “just enough” Stein voters that made the “just enough” difference to get Trump past the Electoral College.

And I suddenly felt old and exhausted and gut-punched and just walked away.


*BFOQ: Bona Fide Occupational Qualification

their nose. And in the end she won the popular vote by close to 3 million votes. So your "committed lefty" friends made no difference.

That was what gave the electoral vote and the presidency to Trump.

I replied to an anecdote with an anecdote. One bothers, you one doesn't. Give me a link to what you are posting and prove that that 12% of yours are Bernie supporters who were "Committed Lefties" as the poster above called them or IMO it's nothing more than an opinion or an anecdote.

Nice to see you again.

… are doing nothing but making me feel bitter.

their crap, they did not vote for Hillary. The were not swing voters.

those on our side...Greens and all the rest who deliberately elected Trump. We have lost the right to our own bodies and barely saved our Republic...fuck them all. When I look at the footage of January 6th, I think of them and hope Karma pays them a visit.

their right given to them by the Constitution. Any person who meets the criteria can run for office and they don't only have to be a Republican or a Democrat. again the Constitution. No politician is owed a vote because of their party or because the other guy is an asshole. It's up to the politician to go out and get that vote. Or not.

There is no way to know how many of those voters would have actually voted for Clinton. That said, they share blame along with the Repukes, Comey, the Russians and the media.

party but that is their choice. Just like always voting for Dems is our choice. That's how our system is set up.

Point taken, but it based on the two candidates, the difference was REALLY stark.

Tweedle Dee.

Nader was so fucking clever.

I hope they learned something from that horrible experience...

Like she was running for prom queen or something. Deeply, deeply sexist take.

… is just belly-aching as far as I’m concerned.

Someone earns my vote on the basis of their record and policies, and an enormous chunk of that is being a Democrat and supporting the Democratic platform. They don’t “earn my vote” because I got to shake their hand and stare them in the eye in a coffee shop.

He needs to take responsibility and apologize.

Though I believe he had an agenda and he didn't really care if it was wrong. He gave us trump.

How much he got?

he pretty much put the nail in the coffin.

I don’t agree that he was the final nail in the coffin. I think the evidence shows that he was more important than every other factor put together.

That was years ago.

This didn't just "happen". We are where we are - with no John Lewis VRA because of that election.

They don't care and never will. Look at Susan Sarandon. If anyone should be groveling it's her, but nope.

don't want a Discussion board Discussing our History of what Happened in 2016.

We're Not going to Cover this up.

What cover up? Everyone knows what happened. And nobody is trying to deny your interest in a special forum for this.

I'm just stating my opinion that it is old news. It is the proverbial beating of a dead horse. But, by all means, do as you will. I'm not trying to stop you.

in 2023 for their Lies and Hate filled Gaslighting in 2016 that assisted getting trump & Fascism into our WH and spreading throughout our Country.

Every woman denied an abortion and every woman denied life saving measures because of the SCOTUS ruling. If you think that's "old news" I can't imagine what you think actually matters.

Because I disagree with you? You attack me? Wow. Sad.

I'm pointing out that it is a current issue that plays out in the lives of ordinary women today.

Obviously they won't repent. The MAGA rulings are just what they wanted. They are fascists. Never let them forget it and call bullshit when they pretend to be leftists.

Stein was a Russian agent but Nader's Green Party wanted to change the status quo which at the time included Gore choosing the definitive DINO troll as a running mate. They proposed a New Green Deal over 20 years ago, which could have changed the course of climate change as surely as a Gore presidency could have. So sometimes people vote third party because they dream of a better world than the two-party shitshow system offers.

That being said, anyone who voted third party in 2016 is obviously an idiot. But the national party did itself no favor in putting Clinton up as the God-chosen candidate when nearly everyone outside the mainstream Democrats could see they put (argumentatively) the most hated woman in America against a populist tv star. That tone-deaf, my-way-or-the-highway decision - plus viciously deriding anyone who voted for Bernie in the primaries - is what killed the Clinton presidency, and I have seen very little self-reflection on the party's part to grapple with this.

or his astroturfed Green Party, which you state later came under the control of a Russian agent.

These folks are really, really good at shrieking "Somebody needs to do something! We'll appropriate the legacy of a Democrat and call it 'The Green New Deal'! We'll be there to claim credit as soon as somebody else makes it happen", but what have they ever done besides help hand the White House (and with it The Supreme Court) to Republicans?

A President Al Gore was not good enough for Team Astroturf.
smh

He was not so bold with his environmentalism while he was running, and while he worked on environmental issues while VP, they were more global/international than domestic, and those were understated in the media because of the Lewinsky and Whitewater "scandals" they focused on instead. Blaming people for not supporting a Pulitzer Prize winning environmental author SEVEN YEARS before he won the prize is some bullshit revisionism.

and its voters is duly noted.

Anyone who believes that Al Gore became an environmental activist only after the 2000 election needs to brush up on on his CV. It was a career of early and strong commitment and action (rather than posturing and sloganeering, as others are wont to do) that led to recognition from the Nobel committee.

As for "bullshit revisionism", Al Gore wrote his book in 1992.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_activism_of_Al_Gore

*as claimed by someone other than me

But he wrote An Inconvenient Truth in 2006, which is what he won the Pulitzer for. Earth in the Balance (published in 1992) did not go as far as An Inconvenient Truth, and, while popular, did not have the impact of An Inconvenient Truth because it came out on the heels of the so-called Reagan Revolution. So yeah, it's totally revisionist to blame voters for not voting for a Pulitzer Prize winning author before he won the actual Pulitzer.