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Eugene

(65,861 posts)
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 04:53 PM Jul 11

Fuel to engines of Air India plane that crashed cut off moments after take-off, report finds

Source: Sky News

Fuel to engines of Air India plane that crashed cut off moments after take-off, report finds

There was also confusion in the cockpit. In the voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why he "cut off". The other pilot responds that he did not do so.

Friday 11 July 2025 21:42, UK

Fuel to the engines of the Air India plane that crashed last month appears to have cut off shortly after take-off, a preliminary report has found.

According to the report, the "Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of one second.

"The Engine N1 and N2 began to decrease from their take-off values as the fuel supply to the engines was cut off."

There was then confusion in the cockpit. In the voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why he "cut off". The other pilot responds that he did not do so.

-snip-

Read more: https://news.sky.com/story/fuel-to-engines-of-air-india-plane-cut-off-moments-before-crash-preliminary-report-finds-13395620

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Fuel to engines of Air India plane that crashed cut off moments after take-off, report finds (Original Post) Eugene Jul 11 OP
wtf Skittles Jul 11 #1
Deliberate, sounds like Blues Heron Jul 11 #2
No evidence to draw that conclusion. As we know, advanced planes are run by software Bernardo de La Paz Jul 11 #9
Except one pilot asked the other one why he did it EX500rider Jul 11 #14
"Why did you shut off?" sounds like a query of the engines, not the other pilot. greyl Jul 11 #20
A pilot would much more likely say "Why did you shut down?" if speaking to the engines.. EX500rider Jul 11 #21
Spare me the lecture bro Blues Heron Jul 11 #16
Spare me the unfounded speculation bro Bernardo de La Paz Jul 11 #17
Why? it's a message board it's all about disussion. Did you read the article? Blues Heron Jul 11 #18
You were the first to object to discussion. "Spare me". . .. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 11 #19
I believe there is evidence EndlessWire Jul 12 #30
Paltry. We don't know if the switches were moved or if an internal action occurred and displayed on screens. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #31
"India Today" has this discussion of the Fuel Switches, their activation, wiring and effect Doctoris Extincti Jul 12 #33
Thanks. Another link I found on that page has even more info, going into scenarios Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #36
There was pilot speculation a while ago that Disaffected Jul 11 #3
There was speculation they hit the flaps up instead of gear up that I saw.... EX500rider Jul 11 #6
Suicide by pilot? EX500rider Jul 11 #4
You have to know the system Fichefinder Jul 11 #8
Wouldn't be the 1st time EX500rider Jul 11 #11
Sure, but zero evidence as yet. Unless you are privy to details we and the press are not. . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 11 #13
Easy enough deduction IMO EX500rider Jul 11 #15
1) Technical gremlin not ruled out. 2) Other evidence runs counter to your theory Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #23
I am not sure there was not a fight over the switch's, the whole audio has not been released EX500rider Jul 12 #25
"Voted most unlikely" by who. There's no issue until there is an issue. Depending on "no issue" is confirmation bias. nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #28
By experts on the plane? EX500rider Jul 12 #35
Good catch. Thanks. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #37
The report said that EndlessWire Jul 12 #34
Switch's were found in RUN position nt EX500rider Jul 12 #38
Also, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (2014) Doctoris Extincti Jul 12 #29
Looks like it. So horrible for all the people who were killed pinkstarburst Jul 12 #22
Cockpit recordings make it clear that it was not intentional. There was no fight and engines were restarted. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 12 #24
All the cockpit audio has not been released. EX500rider Jul 12 #27
gee, instead of arguing maybe turn the fuel supply on again? msongs Jul 11 #5
yeah seconds counted, the 1st engine was just spooling up when they went down EX500rider Jul 11 #7
A pilot did restart at least one engine, but they ran out of time and altitude. Eugene Jul 11 #10
They did, gee. Bernardo de La Paz Jul 11 #12
I'm curious as to whether there was a third person in the cockpit relayerbob Jul 12 #26
Modern, digitized aircraft controls can be run remotely... Think. Again. Jul 12 #32

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
9. No evidence to draw that conclusion. As we know, advanced planes are run by software
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:15 PM
Jul 11

There is no wire connecting a switch to an actuator or mechanism. The "switch" is a sensor that reports its state to the computer, or the computer polls it to check, dozens of times a second (depends on implementation). The computer then decides what to do. It might issue control instructions to a mechanism or change a display or modify some behaviour.

But don't forget the flip side. If the computer detects a dangerous condition, it can take action on its own. Like shut off fuel. Usually drastic action is accompanied by an alarm, but it seems not in this case. However, if software malfunctioned it might have skipped the alarm, depending on how the software is organized. If the software gets corrupted (bad download, cosmic ray, etc), then all bets are off.

Jumping to a conclusion with no evidence when there are plenty of other alternatives is a bit like premature e__lation. Unfortunately, then it settles into some minds and become enmeshed in confirmation-seeking behaviour and confirmation-bias. Let's hope that doesn't happen here.

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
14. Except one pilot asked the other one why he did it
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:29 PM
Jul 11

So I assume he saw the switches in the "OFF" position, the computer didn't move them.
They also got flipped back to "ON" but too late.

With 1,200 built since 2009 and no fatal accidents up till this plane I am going to assume the software/hardware is robust & redundant enough to not shut off the engines uncommanded.

greyl

(23,009 posts)
20. "Why did you shut off?" sounds like a query of the engines, not the other pilot.
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 07:07 PM
Jul 11

Article adds the word "he" and assumes question was for pilot, with no evidence.

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
21. A pilot would much more likely say "Why did you shut down?" if speaking to the engines..
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 08:24 PM
Jul 11

......also the other pilot answered him so it was not a rhetorical question but a accusation it seems to me.

Also pilots have little time for rhetorical questions under 500ft with no power, it's all memory item check lists and fly the plane and pray.

EndlessWire

(7,982 posts)
30. I believe there is evidence
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:35 AM
Jul 12

Both fuel switches were moved to the off position over the detent or notch and then the APU immediately deployed. That's evidence. The problem is, we don't know why. They are springloaded and have to be moved manually. These two levers, one for each engine, were pulled one second apart. By the time the pilots were moving to restart the engines, it was too late.

More than one expert has analyzed the Air India report, and this is the gist of it. It is a big mystery as to how this happened, and we may never know. Perhaps they were cut off by the First Officer thinking they were something else? At any rate, in order for any computer to be told anything to input to the fuel shutoff valves, these switches have to be moved manually.

It really is unthinkable, and a big mystery. Perhaps more info will come out. But we are probably never going to know how this happened.

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
31. Paltry. We don't know if the switches were moved or if an internal action occurred and displayed on screens. . . nt
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:37 AM
Jul 12

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
36. Thanks. Another link I found on that page has even more info, going into scenarios
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 12:07 PM
Jul 12
https://www.indiatoday.in/the-lowdown/story/air-india-crash-boeing-787-8-ahmedabad-fuel-failure-scenarios-the-lowdown-2754763-2025-07-12

It explores four scenarios: Incompetence, technical failure, pilot sabotage, system sabotage. The pilots both seem to have been very stable with futures to look forward to and enjoy.

The July 11, 2025, preliminary report on Air India Flight 171 confirms that the crash resulted from a dual-engine shutdown caused by both fuel control switches moving to CUTOFF, with pilot confusion recorded on the CVR. The Western media seems eager to promote the sabotage theory, hinting at mental health issues with one of the pilots. But no definitive evidence confirms intentional action by the pilots or ground personnel.

Disaffected

(5,766 posts)
3. There was pilot speculation a while ago that
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:00 PM
Jul 11

inadvertent fuel cut-off was the cause with a possible means being the co-pilot switched the fuel cut-off switches instead of landing gear up.

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
6. There was speculation they hit the flaps up instead of gear up that I saw....
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:13 PM
Jul 11

Don't see how you could mistake 2 small switches in the center console for a large lever on the dash

Gear:


Fuel cutout:

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
4. Suicide by pilot?
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:00 PM
Jul 11

Hard to see how that could be a accident as the switch's have to be manually pulled up, then rotated down for off and have raised guards next to them.

Also hard to see how they wouldn't be well aware what the switch's were as they are used to start and stop the engines on every flight.

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
11. Wouldn't be the 1st time
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:19 PM
Jul 11
LAM Mozambique Airlines Flight 470 (2013):
The pilot intentionally crashed the plane after locking the co-pilot out of the cockpit, killing 33 people.

Germanwings Flight 9525 (2015):
The co-pilot, who had a history of depression and suicidal thoughts, locked the captain out of the cockpit and crashed the plane into the French Alps, resulting in 150 fatalities.

EgyptAir Flight 990 (1999):
While the U.S. NTSB concluded the first officer intentionally crashed the plane after the captain left the cockpit, Egyptian authorities have disputed this, with 217 fatalities.

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
13. Sure, but zero evidence as yet. Unless you are privy to details we and the press are not. . . . . nt
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:21 PM
Jul 11

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
15. Easy enough deduction IMO
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:33 PM
Jul 11

Almost no way to mistake 2 small switches in the center console for a large lever on the dash, if accident becomes improbable that leaves on purpose.

Or gross incompetence in one of the pilots I suppose.

YMMV

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
23. 1) Technical gremlin not ruled out. 2) Other evidence runs counter to your theory
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 10:40 AM
Jul 12

2) If it had been deliberate, then there would be evidence of a fight for control in the cockpit. There is none.

If it had been deliberate, the engines would not have been restarted. They were. If one pilot was set on causing a crash they would have prevented restart: 10 seconds later for one and 14 seconds later for the other. Or the pilot would have turned the plane into the ground while the other pilot was restarting the engines.

Distrust "easy deductions". Always dig deeper and consider alternatives. Otherwise it is too easy to fall into confirmation seeking and confirmation bias.

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
25. I am not sure there was not a fight over the switch's, the whole audio has not been released
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:13 AM
Jul 12

Also the timing very much points to human action, engine 1 shut down, 1 sec later engine 2 shut down, both in the order and timing point to a person to me.

Also the gap between 1st switch back on & 2nd one (4sec?) is pretty long for emergency reset, makes me wonder if they was a fight over the switches.


Technical gremlin not ruled out
Voted most unlikely as Dreamliner's have done millions of miles with millions of passengers without this issue and for it to happen at exactly the worse time I find suspicious also.

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
28. "Voted most unlikely" by who. There's no issue until there is an issue. Depending on "no issue" is confirmation bias. nt
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:26 AM
Jul 12

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
35. By experts on the plane?
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:54 AM
Jul 12

Who stated:

The fuel control switches and thrust lever angle resolver signals are hardwired to the engine (with some relays along the way). They do not pass through any A/D conversion, data bus, or network.

Seem to rule out software issues.

EndlessWire

(7,982 posts)
34. The report said that
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:49 AM
Jul 12

one engine was restarted but the other was in the process of start up. While the Boeing plane can fly on one engine, they were too low to recover in this instance.

If the investigators truly did find both switches in the off position, past the detents, then this is also unfathomable, as they were supposed to have been in the process of restarting the engines. The first thing you do is flip the switches to "run." They would have found both switches in the run position. So, maybe the black boxes contain the information about what the switches did. But, this supports your argument.

29. Also, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (2014)
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:32 AM
Jul 12

Still listed as missing (although parts from that 777 have been located on beaches in the Western Indian Ocean, the body of the plane has not been located ) with cause still officially 'undetermined'

However, there is widespread belief that this was a meticulously planned mass-murder suicide likely by the senior pilot for unknown reasons

Wiki is a good place to read more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370

As far as this current Air India crash, The Times of India has an article echoing the concerns of The Airline Pilots’ Association of India that there is a strong, unfair, "Bias towards pilot error"

Read more at http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/122403848.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Initially, there was much (likely justified by Boeing's actions these past several years) finger-pointing at the B-787. From the reporting which is now available, it certainly does seem that, perhaps, actions by the pilots cannot summarily dismissed

At some point all will become clear


pinkstarburst

(1,785 posts)
22. Looks like it. So horrible for all the people who were killed
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 09:48 AM
Jul 12

The combination of cockpit recordings and the fact that the way the switches have to be manipulated in order to cut off the fuel make it unlikely this was anything other than an intentional act.

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
24. Cockpit recordings make it clear that it was not intentional. There was no fight and engines were restarted. . . . nt
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 10:41 AM
Jul 12

EX500rider

(11,933 posts)
27. All the cockpit audio has not been released.
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:18 AM
Jul 12

And the pilot flying may have been a little busy for a fight or argument.

Also if done on purpose they would have a rough idea of how long to spool the engines back up and no need to fight if there is no time left for the engines to get to full thrust.

Bernardo de La Paz

(57,215 posts)
12. They did, gee.
Fri Jul 11, 2025, 05:20 PM
Jul 11

Why did you assume 1)They were arguing 2) They didn't try?

1) One noticed a bad condition and asked the other about it. They received crucial information from the other officer.

2) They restarted one of the two engines. As stated in the article.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
32. Modern, digitized aircraft controls can be run remotely...
Sat Jul 12, 2025, 11:39 AM
Jul 12

...just like modern, digitized automobile controls.

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