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H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 05:23 PM Monday

One Grass Root

"It;s not all that glitters is gold
and half the story has never been told.”
Bob Marley & the Wailers

Where to start? One of the people I am most proud to call a friend asked me if I could post an OP about the case of Jeffery Epstein. I have responded on a few threads here about this case, primarily repeating information that I shared on DU shortly after his death in 2019. My point then – as it is now – is that not everything is as it appears. Sometimes glitter is there simply to distract you. Other times, you might have taken the time to research a topic, as the news cycle spins faster than a subliminal message hidden in a commercial.

Let's take one example that might be of interest here. Do you remember the Steele dossier? And how many people focused entirely on the glitter of a rumor that there was a video of Russian prostitutes peeing on the felon? Or who accepted the republican nonsense about if this part isn't true, none of it is? Thus overlooking what was important – that the felon was under Russia's thumb. The general American public has little to no understanding of “raw intelligence.” This can prevent understanding of who Epstein was.

The current administration – or junta – had planned to release selective information they hoped would exist in government files connected to Epstein. This would only be aimed at Democrats, of course, including politicians and celebrities who support them. Indeed, our least favorite felon was intent upon blaming Joe Biden for the untimely death of Epstein, which may be the most important example of his projecting. It happened during his administration, upsetting A.G. Bill Barr. Yet the maga cult had believed, at least up until this past weekend, that Biden was president when Epstein died.

By last night, the pod casts I watched seemed focused on if Epstein un-alived himself, or if he had a little help from his fiends. I made sure to watch one from the other side of the political divide, because there are often benefits accrued from understanding how the opposition thinks. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I have always found it useful. Such research allowed me, for example, in the 1990s to find that page 100,556 was “missing” from a report by industry and government on a Superfund Site. (When I called a federal government worker to request it, she treated me as if I was a woodchuck – which I am. But I know people. Twenty minutes and two phone calls later, she faxed me page 100,556. It would be an important document in federal court a few years later.)

As a woodchuck and surely not a celebrity, I'll skip to Epstein. I note though, that I'm a woodchuck, not a mother robin. Do your own research. Ignore “celebrities,” hard as it may be, as they are but glitter. No one thinks that a famous musician or Hollywood star would be told, "Endorse this candidate, or we'll destroy you!" Let's leave that to HUAC. Keep in mind that J. Edgar Hoover was focused on the sex lives of politicians/leaders he could pressure and bend to his will.


Epstein was recruited by Bill Barr's father, an original member of the OSS (later CIA). Barr gave him a position in a private school for the children of the rich and famous, despite Epstein's having no college degree or teaching experience. Nothing suspicious there. I mean, it may be sheer coincidence that Barr was impressed by Epstein's behavior towards teen aged girls there, right? Within a year, Barr handed Epstein off to another handler, a man in the international fashion industry, which is surely as clean as a hound's tooth. It's not as if that industry has ever exploited teen aged girls, right?

This gentleman gave Epstein an extremely expensive house in NYC and several millions of dollars to invest. That happens all the time, right? Could easily have been you or I. No different than the Saudi prince giving Jared billions with no strings tied to it. Only paranoid people would think that's suspicious. This allowed Epstein to meet the glittering, beautiful people. But, as we shall see, he was also involved with some very ugly people.

There were two guys on the pod cast I mentioned: Harvey Levin and Mark Garagos. Now, Mark is a smart man, who has worked on a lot of glittery and some important cases. You likely first heard of him defending Susan McDougal, and last heard of his uncharged connection with Michael Avenatti's attempt to extort Nike. I should mention he is good friends with Pam Bondi, who was in charge of the maga plan to falsely tie Epstein to Democrats.

Mark is also close friends with Alan Dershowitz, who as you know had close ties to Epstein. So close, in fact, that Alan is under a court order restricting him from publicly saying what he knows. Mark talked about this, and how from associates he knows that were employed by the FBI and CIA, he learned that Epstein was an asset for the intelligence community. I want to stress that as an “asset,” it does not mean he was a member of Mossad or other Israeli intelligence entities, as some right-wingers claim.

Rather, as an asset for U.S./England/ Israeli intelligence – not a member of – he had business with others of interest. For example, Manucher Ghorbanifar, the double-agent serving Iranian and Israeli interests. After the Reagan administration asked the Israeli prime minister for help in some issues in what is known as the Iran-Contra scandal, it was Manucher who had the U.S. Weapons (and a bible from Reagan) delivered to Iran – in hopes they would be used against Iraq.

“Honey traps” are a popular operation in intelligence. Obviously, Epstein took pleasure in raping under aged girls. They are useful in getting various global leaders to see things their way. Or Russian intelligence, remembering the Mozhno girls of the Cold War, could even task someone like Maria Butina to assist the NRA to be friends. Or, as some here do, you might think I'm paranoid and making shit up. Your choice.

Epstein had a long friendship with the felon. They had a lot in common, both being sociopaths, An elite “men's club” that expands beyond them in the world of politics, meaning finances. The U.S. Had long had raw intelligence suggesting that Putin & Friends had charmed the felon, and was primarily using him to launder their money through his real estate business. One might recall that the felon had been facing some serious difficulties, and that U.S. Banks were hesitant to loan him money. Russian interests did not hesitate.

To solidify the felon's trust, Epstein taught him a glittery way to cheat on taxes. This was a way to get to the evidence the intelligence community sought. That came when Epstein showed the felon a mansion in Florida he was placing a bid on. The felon could not resist being the alpha dog in investments, so he placed a bid about twice that which Epstein had made, without telling his friend. But Epstein, like U.S. And British intelligence, knew he did not have the resources to fully pay that amount. Thus, he soon sold it to a Russian mobster for twice what he had offered on it. This, of course, is money laundering. This ended any need for Epstein to continue his friendship with the felon.

While there is overlap between them, the intelligence community and DOJ are distinct. Why aren't all crimes prosecuted? Some due to their international implications. Sometimes, a Patrick Fitzgerald would want to prosecute Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby for the Plame scandal. But he knew there were other ways the system should work …. so he advocated that Congress take up the Cheney matter, and he prosecuted Libby for other related felonies. Why didn't Robert Mueller everyone I wanted him to? Oh, the answer is in his report. Why didn't Garland end this national nightmare? I wish he had

Now, some are suspicious of what I've been saying here. That's good. Be suspicious. You don't know me and have no reason to take my word on anything. Take the time to do your own research. That's what I would absolutely do if you posted something I wasn't aware of, because I don't know you. Some others here do know me as a fairly trustworthy woodchuck. And I tell them the same thing: do more research, and find things I was unaware of. It is becoming an issue that sows divisions within maga, so the more we know, the better.

And remember, the DU community is not alone in reading this forum.

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
One Grass Root (Original Post) H2O Man Monday OP
Now I'm curious dweller Monday #1
A site report H2O Man Monday #6
Good catch ! dweller Monday #7
A must read OP malaise Monday #2
Thank you! H2O Man Monday #8
What's your theory about Saoirse9 Monday #3
Right! H2O Man Monday #15
Excellent answer! Thanks. n/t Saoirse9 Monday #25
Dear Trustworthy Woodchuck: OneGrassRoot Monday #4
Why, of course! H2O Man Monday #17
please continue the OPs on this topic RockCreek 6 hrs ago #53
Thank you! H2O Man 6 hrs ago #55
Agree! RockCreek 6 hrs ago #57
dang nabbit AllaN01Bear Monday #5
As Neil Young sang, H2O Man Monday #19
i smel a rat.! AllaN01Bear Monday #33
Great OP. Reminds me of Sheehan's talks on the Midnight Soldiers. It's all a foggy Barrel Full of Monkeys to be sure n/t Cheezoholic Monday #9
Thank you! H2O Man Monday #21
Absolutely. I've been following cases of his since the late 70's (Silkwood case). His work on the Iran Contra stuff was Cheezoholic Monday #32
Definitely! H2O Man 12 hrs ago #39
Dagnabbit, your dismissal of the pee pee tapes ruined one of my favorite jokes: Martin Eden Monday #10
Wait! H2O Man Monday #22
Ridicule and laughter should be in the Democratic arsenal Martin Eden Monday #24
Exactly! H2O Man Monday #27
He probably wouldn't like this protest sign of mine Martin Eden Monday #29
That is great! H2O Man Monday #30
It got a lot of attention at the No Kings protest in downtown Chicago Martin Eden Monday #31
On the laughter front, completely unrelated, but pat_k Yesterday #36
Wow! H2O Man Yesterday #37
it's fast becoming a wedge in the republican party bigtree Monday #11
Rep. Jamie Raskin H2O Man Monday #16
everytime I listen to him I'm reminded of what got me interested in politics and law bigtree Monday #18
Excellent post Picaro Monday #12
Thanks! H2O Man 11 hrs ago #41
Highly recommended democrank Monday #13
Thank you! H2O Man 9 hrs ago #42
Great post linking a lot of loose ends; and the tying of these loose ends together erronis Monday #14
I agree. H2O Man 9 hrs ago #43
So, you can answer a question that keeps me up at night... malthaussen Monday #20
A classic question H2O Man 9 hrs ago #44
I was actually taught that just because someone is bad one way... malthaussen 7 hrs ago #49
It's impossible for me to read walls of text, but I tried Warpy Monday #23
I think that H2O Man 9 hrs ago #45
Well, my own feeling was just that he was the wrong man for the job Warpy 7 hrs ago #50
And I wouldn't H2O Man 6 hrs ago #51
Phew! Some bedtime reading. Thank you! Bumbles Monday #26
The cure for insomnia H2O Man 8 hrs ago #46
That is a whole lot of non-trivial info. Thanks. --- Kick. Rec. Bookmark. Hekate Monday #28
Thank you! H2O Man 8 hrs ago #47
lots of same day protests in other countries. RockCreek 6 hrs ago #56
Right! H2O Man 6 hrs ago #58
Thank you...and bookmarking. yellow dahlia Monday #34
Thank you! H2O Man 6 hrs ago #52
The various ties are mind-boggling to me. pat_k Yesterday #35
Yes. H2O Man 6 hrs ago #54
Morning kick. n/t OneGrassRoot 15 hrs ago #38
Thank you so much for your well-informed post... AntiFascist 11 hrs ago #40
Recommend! SalviaBlue 8 hrs ago #48
Very interesting and informative. Srkdqltr 6 hrs ago #59

dweller

(26,832 posts)
1. Now I'm curious
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 05:59 PM
Monday

What’s on page 100,566 of the report by industry and government on a Superfund Site ?
🤔

✌🏻

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
6. A site report
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:29 PM
Monday

from a state agency employee that was favorable to a corporation. He claimed that water flows upstream, not downstream. The corporation was, of course, attempting to deny responsibility for poisoning the environment.

dweller

(26,832 posts)
7. Good catch !
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:42 PM
Monday

1 - noticing the missing page
2 - identifying the incriminating evidence

✌🏻

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
8. Thank you!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:43 PM
Monday

If I could recommend any one thing, it would be that DUers listen closely to Jamie Raskin. He knows the deal, and is taking the lead. I have the greatest respect for him.

What we need to concentrate on are the files that state investigators and prosecutors had on Epstein. These include a number of important documents that they could not enter in a court setting, and that they couldn't release publicly. The DOJ files that were on Bondi's desk were primarily these. We have to be specific in communicating our demands to Congress, or they would usually be able to ignore them.

Yet Congressman Raskin knows the republicans in the House recognize this Bondi scandal is causing the maga pot boil over. They are already hearing from enraged maga athletic supporters, who will not be satisfied by benching Pam. So while I still recommend being specific, we must answer the prophet Bob Marley's call to "stir it up."

Saoirse9

(3,886 posts)
3. What's your theory about
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:16 PM
Monday

why Pam Bondi declined to release *any* of the Epstein files?

Was trump so prevalent in the files that there was no way to cherry pick?

I would think if Clinton was even in some small part of the files they would release that.

Did they decide if they released info on Dems the Dems would testify against rethugs listed in the files?

Groggy today so I may have missed something you wrote above. I hope I am not asking a stupid question.

I also wonder a bit why Garland wasn’t interested in the Epstein files.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
15. Right!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:43 PM
Monday

Rep. Jamie Raskin has requestred Bondi to release "part two" of Jack Smith's report. The first part is public. Maybe the public needs to know not the specifics of the classified documents the felon took with him to mar-a-leggo. That's what "part two" covers. Who was in those files he tried to shoplift?

Garland was interested in Epstein's activities. I know, I know ..... I wish he appointed Mr. Smith earlier. However, he, like many others, were convinced the felon would retire to play golf and fund-raise. The felon told others he was through with politics. As you know, it was immediately after Mr. Smith was appointed that the felon announced he was running in 2024. This is not a coincide

Pam Bondi only would purposely humiliate herself publicly when ordered by the felon or Stephan Miller. The other times she humiliates herself, it isn't intentional on her part.

There is a lot more that will be happening in upcoming weeks. I like Rep. Raskin's leadership on this. Entrench it as an issue, and if republicans stall, we take the House next year and hold hearings.

OneGrassRoot

(23,783 posts)
4. Dear Trustworthy Woodchuck:
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:16 PM
Monday
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS OP!!!

You tied together several significant pieces for me. I normally pay close attention to current events, political and otherwise, but when you mentioned that Epstein died in 2019, that explains why there are so many things missing for me. (I was in a cancer/chemo coma for a handful of those years and things are quite hazy but tidbits broke through.)

I'm going to read again and process and follow the breadcrumbs.

We most certainly live in interesting times.

Thank you again. More hugs to you

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
17. Why, of course!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:55 PM
Monday

There is quite a bit more that I hope to rant about soon. Who Epstein was is important. His role has to be understood. I listened to an interview with his younger brother last night. He is, of course, soley focused on how Jeffery died. I don't pretend to know. But I thought he raised some interesting point.

At this time, I am happy that the felon is drawing attention to his relationship with Epstein. That is the bull's-eye that Jamie Raskin is aiming at. Good people need to support his effort.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
55. Thank you!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:31 PM
6 hrs ago

I definitely will! I think a good discussion has followed here. And that is what is best about DU.

AllaN01Bear

(26,372 posts)
5. dang nabbit
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:29 PM
Monday

ALARM. alarm.ALARM. alarm. there go my personal internal alarms again!!!! h20 man, my spidy sense is tingling

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
19. As Neil Young sang,
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:59 PM
Monday

there's "more to the picture than meets the eye." As Rep. Jamie Raskin is pointing out, Bondi should release Part Two of Mr. Smith's report, which focuses on the confidential documents the felon tried to steal. That would potentially provide information on those involving Epstein that the public has the right to know about.

Cheezoholic

(3,095 posts)
9. Great OP. Reminds me of Sheehan's talks on the Midnight Soldiers. It's all a foggy Barrel Full of Monkeys to be sure n/t
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:52 PM
Monday

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
21. Thank you!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:04 PM
Monday

Daniel Sheehan is one of the individuals I have the greatest respect for. People would do well to pay attention attention to him. He has such an intense understanding of the Constitution, and of what people my age consider "recent history."

Cheezoholic

(3,095 posts)
32. Absolutely. I've been following cases of his since the late 70's (Silkwood case). His work on the Iran Contra stuff was
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 09:05 PM
Monday

dipping a toe into an ocean far deeper than I think even he realized when they first started investigating it. Raskin, as you've mentioned in this thread, reminds me of Sheehan 40 years ago when he speaks on Constitutional Law and government.
Many write Sheehan off as looney because of the UFO stuff but it's been my experience wherever he's fishing there's usually bucket loads of fish.

Your OP brought up names I remembered from his famous college tour speaking about Iran/Contra with mentions of Dershowitz and linking Ghorbanifar with OSS/CIA (and some of the originators of the long used covert drug money for weapons) cohorts Daniel Barr and General John Singlaub. Like you said, don't look at the glitter.

It truly is a big 'ol foggy chain of a Barrel of Monkeys dating all the way back to the original Amerikan Fascist Movement of the 30's.

Heres the audio from his Iran/Contra speaking tour for anyone interested.

&ab_channel=OurHiddenHistory

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
39. Definitely!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 02:05 PM
12 hrs ago

Both Sheehan and Raskin bring the Constitution to life -- exactly as it should be. There is no higher praise.

We benefit from their ability to make truly complicated issues understandable. To give those devils their due, the people that conducted the extensive, far-reaching series of crimes known as Iran-Contra made it very difficult to follow. One could start down one path, and easily be distracted by glitter, and head off on an endless series of trajectories that were often loops. In a healthy, sane society, such people are honored.

It's just my opinion, but as far as UFOs go, I keep an open mind. I have family and friends who research the topic, and my impression has been that this, too, is a topic that has false leads and dead ends, at least in terms of anything reported by the government. When I was a kid, everyone in our neighborhood -- including every adult -- witnessed something flying over that appeared unworldly. It turned out that a lot of people in other states saw the same thing.

The following week, at the Catholic catechism I was forced to endure, kids were talking about the UFO. The sister said there was no such thing, and proved this by saying UFOs are not found in the bible. Now, I had listened to my older brothers for a week, so I was prepared. I asked her how the prophet Elijah left the earth? "On a flaming chariot," was her answer.

After a brief silence, she called my father. Within seconds, he would be throwing punches at me on the church lawn. This may be why I invested much more time perfecting the art of bobbing & weaving, both in the gym and ring, rather than studying UFOs. But at this point in life, I think the universe is alive and has some level of consciousness that humans are incapable of grasping.

Martin Eden

(14,602 posts)
10. Dagnabbit, your dismissal of the pee pee tapes ruined one of my favorite jokes:
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:52 PM
Monday

Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2025, 09:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Q;
What's the difference between a garbanzo bean and a chickpea?
A:
Trump has never had a garbanzo bean on his face.

Yeah, I know, this is a serious thread. I'm incorrigible, but we need to laugh on occasion.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
22. Wait!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:08 PM
Monday

I think it is still in style to make jokes like that. I shall keep this one in mind, to deliver while engaged in serious preparations for July 17th, for it is the best one I've heard. An added bonus is that the felon hates to be laughed at.

And we do need to laugh. Social-political activism goes best with a sense of humor. So thank you!

Martin Eden

(14,602 posts)
24. Ridicule and laughter should be in the Democratic arsenal
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:18 PM
Monday

Stripped of power, he's a pathetic clown.

Martin Eden

(14,602 posts)
29. He probably wouldn't like this protest sign of mine
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:41 PM
Monday

I can't take credit for the line drawing (found it in a political cartoon on DU), but the rest is my work. I'm working on some new signs for July 17.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
30. That is great!
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:49 PM
Monday

That needs to be on a large banner to be hung on overpasses on interstate highways.

Martin Eden

(14,602 posts)
31. It got a lot of attention at the No Kings protest in downtown Chicago
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:52 PM
Monday

I lost count of how many times I was asked to hold still for a photo.

pat_k

(11,419 posts)
36. On the laughter front, completely unrelated, but
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 01:58 AM
Yesterday

...every time it pops into my head, I find myself chuckling about QUESO from the Comprehensive Mexican Food Acronyms.



It's just so British somehow. (This is from Private Eye).

Laughter may save us!

bigtree

(91,906 posts)
11. it's fast becoming a wedge in the republican party
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 06:59 PM
Monday

...which our politics should take advantage of.

It takes little to nothing to twist the knife, and this is at the peak of maga voter concern. So we take some time out of our advocacy to remind voters who we want to stay home in the midterms that their party leaders' favorite campaign appeal claiming Democrats are pedofiles is nothing more than projection.

Why are repubublicans the only ones interested in dividing voters from their party? Can we really afford to leave even one Trump, republican scandal unexploited by our politics?

This is a classic political bomb which will serve to gaslight Trump into even more disapproved behavior and keep him from settling into the rest of his fascism, very likely placing actual barriers between him and his conservative legislators in Congress.

This is a battle of inches, not football fields. We need all of our weapons for this fight.


List of Trump Allies Who Called for Release of Epstein Files
https://www.newsweek.com/list-trump-allies-who-called-release-epstein-files-2098693

MAGA faithful are angry about the Epstein case. Here's what to know
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/maga-faithful-are-angry-about-the-epstein-case-heres-what-to-know/ar-AA1IAOva

I mean...

Andrew Kaczynski @KFILE
After it was reported that Trump called Charlie Kirk to ask him to tone down his criticism of the Epstein files he now says this:





H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
16. Rep. Jamie Raskin
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:48 PM
Monday

is leading the way on this. I respect him, and he has a great grasp of what is involved.

bigtree

(91,906 posts)
18. everytime I listen to him I'm reminded of what got me interested in politics and law
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:59 PM
Monday

Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2025, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)

...we're lucky to have him in my state.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
41. Thanks!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 02:51 PM
11 hrs ago

I've been listening to media reports and "expert" opinions, and reading comments on several internet sites including DU, about Epstein and current events. There is a mixture of good information, sad misinformation, and purposeful disinformation. I was really impressed when yesterday, Rep. Jamie Raskin connected the Epstein information with the classified documents that the felon stole at the end of his first term. He is advocating for the release of part 2 of Jack Smith's report, which focuses on those documents.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
42. Thank you!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 04:35 PM
9 hrs ago

Sometimes, when my children run away at the sight of me to avoid my bending their ears on topics like this, I write them down for DU and others who are not community members, but read and share some posts in their circles. I want not only every registered Democrat to support Rep. Jamie Raskin, I aim to reach out to those who maybe used to be in our party, but are now independents. We need to reach them at the grass roots.

erronis

(20,570 posts)
14. Great post linking a lot of loose ends; and the tying of these loose ends together
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 07:26 PM
Monday

is what investigative journalists (and the "intelligence community" ) should be doing.

Between your post and many other fearless reporters/observers/ordinary folk, the connections should be able to be made - linking many/most/all of the critters you mention as well as thousands of others around the world.

But getting this information to the masses is a very different matter. There are wonderful blogs and regularly-published articles containing good data and analyses. We that have the time and knowledge can read and understand and appreciate.

But the main spigot of newshit that blasts from their T.V.s/radio contains not an atom of this information. Of course the Murdoch and Sinclair empires will never tell the unvarnished truth. But it's hard to find a another main outlet (of record) that dares to be honest in its reporting. Thank god for The Guardian, ProPublica, and others. But these aren't watched by people wearing MAGA costumes.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
43. I agree.
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 04:48 PM
9 hrs ago

If I look back to my paternal grandfather X7's example, he had been a school teacher of some note until a foreign group determined our people were not to be formally educated. His initial response was to become a hedge master, teaching in secret spots along the trails and roads. He became the poet of the United Irishman, and like his more famous cousin, was sentenced to be hung.

From the dungeon, he wrote what I consider a powerful poem. He had it snuck out, and given to his children. He was eventially set free, I suspect because he was, from all recorded descrtiptions, a generally likeable, frequently vain type of man. I have some of his writings from the Royal Irish Academy. At times like we are experiencing now, I think we must create and expand "hedge schools" along the information highway.

I get the impression the corporate media has internal questions on how to handle discussions on Epstein. Some go for the shallowist levels of glitter, though they could likely be unaware of anything deeper. Others have a much better idea. I favor keeping it in the news, and a hot potato for maga leadership.

malthaussen

(18,173 posts)
20. So, you can answer a question that keeps me up at night...
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:02 PM
Monday

... how much wood can you chuck?

I'm kinda surprised MAGA is losing its collective shit over the Epstein thing. It's not like most of them wouldn't rape 12 year old girls if they had the chance. "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed," as they say in Alabama.

I would expect them to lose their shit if a tape emerged of their hero having someone pee on his face, because that's just not manly behavior. I guess I don't understand MAGA very well.

-- Mal

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
44. A classic question
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 05:00 PM
9 hrs ago

that has puzzled humans as long as how much ground a groundhog could grind, if indeed it could grind ground. I anticipate the maga leadership to find the answer, but keep it secret. They are so good at that, for short periods of time, followed by out-of-control splatterings of bullshit.

You nail, of course, one of the most important issues for us to understand. There are comorbidities, very well documented in respected sources such as Stone & Brucato's "The New Evil: Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime" of cruelty -- the concentration camp in Florida -- and getting off on raping children and youth under the loegal age. The book does not define "evil" in a religious context, but rather, what makes people sick to hear about. This cannot be fully understood by thinking these features are limited to mass murderers, spree killers, and rapists. Take a group of criminals and put them in charge of the federal government, supported by maga masses that get off on these things, and we find ourselves in the fucking mess we are in.

malthaussen

(18,173 posts)
49. I was actually taught that just because someone is bad one way...
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 06:41 PM
7 hrs ago

... it didn't imply he was bad in any other way. I'm not so sure of that anymore. Seems to me like the gentlemen (and ladies!) involved in the running of our government are full-spectrum no-goodniks, with a cascading and reinforcing set of nasty behavior that make sharks look like compassionate nuns.

It's kind of appalling. Wasn't the idea of a civilized society to reduce the amount of bad behavior among the people? Seems like that should be a minimum objective, or why are we bothering?

-- Mal

Warpy

(113,680 posts)
23. It's impossible for me to read walls of text, but I tried
Mon Jul 14, 2025, 08:10 PM
Monday

I have no idea what Garland's game was, why he seemed to stall every investigation, why he did little with the things he was handed on a silver platter, all tied up with a bow.

Epstein was a different matter, an enigma wrapped thickly in a coverup, and heavily guarded in death as much as in life by an army of moneyed and/or powerful but deeply frightened men who don't want any of his story to get out. I'd like to start at the beginning: how does a college dropout from Queens end up with a teaching job at a fairly prestigious prep school? Did he ever really preside over a classroom there? What was his real job?

Answer at least some of those questions and I think the way he slid out of the humble, unqualified teacher job into the high flying, unqualified finiancier job and eventually became pimp to the plutocracy will become a lot more clear.

My guess is that it will take an obscure cholar digging through documents no one else is interested in to find all this out in a century or so.

And yes, a lot of movers and shakers read DU. They'll just never admit it in public.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
45. I think that
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 05:05 PM
9 hrs ago

Garland is bureaucratic by nature. At the time he appointed Jack Smith, I thought and still think he was doing as well as he could. It was immediately after Mr. Smith was appointed that the felon announced he was running again. Perhaps this was anticipated, but the idea he could win was not. I respect others' differing opinions on A.G. Garland.

Warpy

(113,680 posts)
50. Well, my own feeling was just that he was the wrong man for the job
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 06:57 PM
7 hrs ago

both by temperament and by training.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
51. And I wouldn't
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:14 PM
6 hrs ago

say you are wrong ...... and the results seem to support your position. I can't pretend otherwise. Add to that I can't remember if I'd ever disagreed with you over the years. This isn't the first.

If I remember correctly, it was in 1967 that Senator Eugene McCarthy noted the system often puts a practical man in place, when a philosopher is needed. The president put a practical man in. Had he appointed Mr. Smith, who has a bit of a different philosophy, a year earlier, this period could have been avoided. Some men find it practical to wait for all the evidence, others think there are times that you prepare for all potential outcomes well before you document everything. There were some of those "others" in both the FBI and DOJ.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
46. The cure for insomnia
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 05:12 PM
8 hrs ago

is believed to be found in doses of my writings. Doctors warn not to drive or operate machinary after reading even my shortest responses on this forum. I suspect that Stephan Miller is pressuring RFK, Jr. to order people not to read the Democratic Underground.

On the other hand, I lay awake at night thinking about these things, talking to myself. Even the dog goes upstairs.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
47. Thank you!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 05:18 PM
8 hrs ago

I'm trying to round up the old gang to help me make some Epstein posters for the rallies on the 17th. I guess this is the time that normal people go on vacation. Not being normal, I do not take vacations. But my children are normal. For example, my youngest daughter surprised my older one by showing up on her European doorstep unexpected yesterday. The rest of the family knew, but didn't tell her. They sent a video of when she answered the door. It is so sweet! I think it is great that all four of my kids have traveled the world.

RockCreek

(1,031 posts)
56. lots of same day protests in other countries.
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:31 PM
6 hrs ago

perhaps your kids will surprise you from abroad.
The main web sites like 5150 list international locations for the big protest days, as well as US locations.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
58. Right!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:38 PM
6 hrs ago

Both daughters have been Democratic Party activists, assisting me in going door-to-door to campaign for our party's candidates. They were politically active while in high school. They were both politically active in the university, and have continued in their communities.

There are a majority in Europe who are extremely concerned about the felon & co. creating global problems.

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
52. Thank you!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:15 PM
6 hrs ago

As disgusting as both are, I've got to put both on some posters for the rally on the 17th.

pat_k

(11,419 posts)
35. The various ties are mind-boggling to me.
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 01:38 AM
Yesterday

The mix of machination and serendipity. Like the role of Melanie S. Walker. I don't know what to make of her, but she seems to be one of those who were touched by the magic wand that elevated unlikely people to rarefied heights in the waters Epstein swam in.

According to a 2021 Rolling Stone piece
https://web.archive.org/web/20210804042059/https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates-connection-1206453/

Having finished her undergraduate studies at the University of Texas, she was on a sightseeing trip to New York in 1992. She was having tea in the main dining room of the Plaza Hotel when Jeffrey Epstein approached, because, says a source with knowledge, he thought she was attractive. With him was Donald Trump, who was busy shaking hands with people in the room. (Trump was then the Plaza’s owner.) Trump also introduced himself to Walker.

Epstein then became a mentor to Walker. Walker told the Times that Epstein offered her a modeling opportunity — but the person familiar says Epstein told her not to go into modeling, and he encouraged her to finish medical school, which she did. 

From 1992 to 2000, the time period when she went to medical school in Texas, records show that she listed an address in a New York apartment building that Epstein owned. This was a place she could use for occasional meetings in New York, according to the person familiar with her. But, this person says, she didn’t live there.


And on she goes. Ties to Prince Andrew. Top advisor at the Gates Foundation. Secondment at the World Bank. Heady stuff. A pawn? A player? Where will she turn up next?

H2O Man

(77,310 posts)
54. Yes.
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:29 PM
6 hrs ago

It strikes me as curious, sometimes. In traditional Iroquois society, the adults and elders kept a close eye on children and youth. They recognized, for example, certain leadership qualities that would allow a clan mother to pick who would be their representative on the Council of Chiefs and Grand Council of Chiefs. They identified those who thought for themselves, and acted for others. And the clan mother could "de-horn" -- or remove -- a chief for misbehavior. I've witnessed that.

In our society, bad people among us identify young people with the potential to become bad. Various types of organized crime are based upon this exercise, to make more money to leaders. Some of their behaviors are "legal," such as serving on foundations boards of directors that tend to have quite a bit of influence on society. Some of their behaviors are illegal and evil. It never works out well when a group of them take over the federal government, in my opinion.

AntiFascist

(13,494 posts)
40. Thank you so much for your well-informed post...
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 02:41 PM
11 hrs ago

One interesting piece of info I ran across in doing some internet research was the case of John Mark Dougan, formerly a Florida deputy sheriff for Broward/Palm Beach who was supposedly involved in the Epstein investigation. He got into some trouble for hacking into a government system, I believe, to try and expose some sort of corruption then fled to Russia for asylum. He became an "IT consultant" and is now linked to numerous fake news websites pushing Russian propaganda. He also claims to have copies of the information in Epstein's files that he brought with him and claims that that there is a dead switch to release the info in case anything should happen to him.

Not that we should necessarily believe anything he has to say, but it is very interesting to note that legitimate news sources in the UK (namely the UK Times) have reported that MI6 became very concerned that he may have passed information to Russian authorities:

A former US police officer who fled to Russia and claims to have hundreds of hours of video from Jeffrey Epstein’s properties has said that the FBI may be helping to cover up Prince Andrew’s alleged role in the sexual abuse scandal.

MI6 sources fear that John Mark Dougan, a former US Marine and Florida deputy sheriff, may have passed compromising information about the prince to Russian authorities.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/fbi-is-involved-in-jeffrey-epstein-cover-up-x6b3fxgm9

SalviaBlue

(3,079 posts)
48. Recommend!
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 06:07 PM
8 hrs ago

Thanks for a great post that connects the dots and reminds me of all the things we have learned over the years.

Srkdqltr

(8,641 posts)
59. Very interesting and informative.
Tue Jul 15, 2025, 07:39 PM
6 hrs ago

I'm not deep into all this. I realize that most of what is on the surface, what is on the evening news is nothing to what actually goes on. Lately this whole Epstein thing has sounded like a huge game with people changing things as they go. It is difficult for us who are not in government or students of it, as you are, to imagine the magnitude of all this and how in impacts what goes on today.
I imagined that it would come out that there was really never a "list" as such and how could it have been trusted as it has gone through so many hands if there was. I just figured if there was a list there were no Dems. on it because it would have been plastered all over long ago if there were. Thank you for posting your work it makes a difference to see in depth what may be going on.

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