General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI was on vacation while the whole Epstein thing exploded.
That being said, my assessment of the story is more or less unchanged.
First, there still is nothing that leads me to believe that there is some grand master "Epstein List" that contains names of people who conspired with Epstein for sex trafficking purposes or what not.
So as much as I hate to say it, Pam Bondi is probably technically correct in that respect.
The idea of an "Epstein List" is basically a myth perpetrated by mostly those on the right who want there to be some proof of massive amounts of Democratic politicians and left-leaning celebrities being in cohorts with Epstein and his worst offenses. There are dozens of fake "lists" floating online whose list of supposed "Epstein Island Visitors" contain entries as laughable as Seth Green, Meryl Streep, Miley Cyrus, Patton Oswalt, and Tom Hanks. Gullible right wing nut jobs ate up this bullshit like candy and propagated it as if there was the undisputed truth.
Bondi was basically placed between a rock and a hard place. Either she would have to come out and admit there was no actual "list" to speak of, or she could attempt to slap together some obviously transparent and idiotic "list" of her own that anyone with half a brain cell would be able to expose as fake. In the end, being risk adverse she chose the former and not the latter.
And the fact Bondi's very-reluctant admission shattered the far-right wing illusion of some massive list of Democrats and liberal celebrities who were conspiring with Epstein is the reason for the freakout by those on the right.
The concept of a "Epstein list" was basically a Ponzi scheme, inevitably destined to collapse. And it just did. So the right-wing is all upset.
So if there was no actual "list," what is there?
Well, there was a huge investigative file that looked into everything relating to Epstein's activities. And the thing about Epstein was that he was a huge narcissist who loved rubbing elbows with the rich, famous and powerful. So anyone he came in contact with could have found their names at various points in the file documents. This would include a lot of big names. Overwhelmingly, most of those peoples' names inclusion is 100% innocuous. There are probably a small few, however, who might not be.
So, just for example, back in the early 2000s--before Epstein's activities were known to the public--when the Clinton Foundation needed an airplane to travel to various countries and Epstein volunteered his plane, without the benefit of foresight they accepted it and that's something that could have brought in President Clinton's name to the entire file. Ultimately, it certainly is embarrassing, but not a shred of evidence of culpability in any crimes. But the right wing will insist otherwise simply because it fits their agenda. Nothing more and nothing less.
On the other hand, it appears that people like Alan Dershowitz and Prince Andrew might have a lot more involvement in Epstein's illicit activity, if the evidence turns out to be true. But even that hasn't been proven to support probable cause of a crime, let alone proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
So what to make of Donald Trump's freak out regarding the Epstein case?
Well, he certainly knew Epstein well enough to be photographed with him multiple times. And he once went on the record about how Epstein "liked them young," so an inference could be made that he at least may have had some knowledge about Epstein's sexual predilections.
Does that mean Trump was a culpable co-conspirator? I objectively cannot say and will not say. But I do think whatever mentions in the investigative files of Trump's name were certainly embarrassing enough to someone whose skin is as thin as Donald Trump to cause him to freak out. As a malignant narcissist Trump is very image sensitive, and the mere idea that he could be connected to Epstein--especially after the civil judgment in the Carroll case--would likely have caused him to freak out.
In the end, while the actions of Epstein were undoubtedly horrific and there stands a chance that at least some knew of his activities and may have even acted along with him, as a political scandal I still believe the Epstein story is fools gold, for both the left and right alike.
It will flare up every so often, as it did last week, but I don't see it as having any sort of lasting impact. People have way too short memories for that.

sop
(15,253 posts)What happened to the videos the FBI was reviewing?
johnnyfins
(2,471 posts)I dont care about a client list that probably has 100s of potentially just business contacts.
Who was in the videos?
bucolic_frolic
(51,529 posts)No list. Just travel logs and phone records. Circumstantial for many or most.
Unexplained for me is all that international travel. These very rich hotel guys were all over the planet. And all those international beauty pageants. I think you're right, we'll never know much.
newdeal2
(3,437 posts)1. Jeffrey Epstein ran a global pedo ring with Democrats and other elites
2. COVID vax controls your brain
3. J6 was a peaceful demonstration because Trump won in 2020
Taking away one of those is a huge deal to the MAGA movement which fuels Trumps power.
Hugin
(36,653 posts)Awesome.
As my mind grinds through this I keep coming back to why the FBI list would be so important? It's a little clearer once you realize that the Epstein queew canon states that raw incriminating materials were immediately seized and spirited away by the Deep State in the guise of the FBI... Never to be seen again.
However, a couple of things. IF Epstein were primarily in the business of extortion, he surely was smart enough to keep multiple stashes of these items. Some in dead drops and others with individuals who know the right thing to do without being told. People you'd least expect or even groups. None of this stuff would be in one safe... Let's give Epstein credit for not being an idiot.
In this scenario, he was pressed for all of the material, he refused. I'm guessing partly because some of it was in the hands of those, he has no control over. So, he was silenced at the risk that somewhere some of this material would pop up.
Okay, now there's other considerations that I keep reenforcing even though it won't be accepted. Let's say the FBI really did get some of this odious and filthy evidence in their raids. It would never be included in an official release. NEVER! We're talking about people who will redact pronouns and conjunctions for even the mildest releases you can imagine at the DoJ. Especially, when it involves Republicans it seems.
There's the third course where fraudulent media containing prominent figures the right-wing hates would be generated using AI or what-not is included with the release of "the client list". I have to say, that would be some of the most ridiculous porn the world has ever seen. It would be absolutely obvious that it was faked and would swallow the story whole without even spitting out the bones. The credibility of the DoJ, FBI, and the government as a whole would never recover. Now, I'm not saying they won't try. I've stopped trying to predict a bottom for these weird creeps.
Scrivener7
(56,514 posts)If you read about the NYC townhouse, the walls were stone and the cameras were embedded into them.
Those cameras weren't taking school photos, though yes, the girls were school aged.
There is no list, but there are thousands of videos and images.
miyazaki
(2,474 posts)poli-junkie
(1,323 posts)his powerful clients. Wheres the footage?
Bill Barr knows EVERYTHING about Epstein. Why is NO ONE talking about Barrs role in Epsteins arrest and suicide.
Hugin
(36,653 posts)Being the wrecking crew for the Epstein problem.
It would seem Trump wasn't clear on the concept and has let the dumpster reignite as he's prone to doing.
AZJonnie
(1,075 posts)During the course of discussions here, H20Man brought up an interesting item outside the sex aspect which is that Epstein was a financial adviser to Trump of sorts and was advising him about that Florida home sale to a Russian that looks like an obvious oligarch money laundering scheme, so that could also be a concern of his wrt what is in the file.
FWIW Dersh and Virginia Giuffre reached a settlement of their mutual defamation cases in 2022, in which no money changing hands, and Giuffre stipulating that due to the stress she was under at the time, she "may" have gotten him confused with someone else.
The evidence in the Andrew case is sorta thin (and sadly tawdry in a way I don't want to go into here, suffice to say it does not flatter VG, but given she was only 17 and what she was going thru, hard to hold against her too much), but decently convincing. The thing about this one though is that Maxwell, Epstein and Andrew were CLOSE, and VG was close with Epstein and Maxwell. That one I think well could have happened, but because of the closeness of the parties, I don't know if it can be extrapolated from too much, like to conclude for sure that Epstein was doing this sort of 'sharing' on the regular, and/or with others of the victims. Also 17 is past age of consent in the UK, so what Andrew did was not technically illegal. According to her, though, Epstein paid her 10K for sleeping with Andrew, which is definitely NOT legal.
Anyways, that RWNJ conspiracy theory I saw so many tweets and other SM posts about 2021-2024 led me to research the actual evidence for 'the ring' existing years ago, in hopes of defending Biden admins seeming "inaction" about the supposed "client list" (and Clinton, and Richardson) and what I found (and argued with these idiots at the time) was basically what you just said. The evidence for a pedophile ring of rich and powerful was actually mostly a CT, not really backed by strong evidence at all.
A lot of people, on both sides of the aisle, are really attached to it, though
usonian
(19,220 posts)Epstein's "clients" were all rich.
In America, we protect the rich.
They are even exempt from sins.
LOTS of rich people fucked kids. It's part of "privilege".
And parties are beholden to the rich.
I am sure Jeffrey promised them secrecy. Whatever else happened (blackmail, espionage) I dunno, and don't care unless it collapses the regime, because THE MAGATS BELIEVE IT WAS ONLY DEMOCRATS INVOLVED and they are being covered up.
There is nothing more poetic than a lie causing the end of the liars. Novels, myths, epic poems and operas are written on such themes.
In a post-truth world, where any old thing can and will be faked, this is the "truth".
"The files are loaded with dems trafficking kids for sex, drinking blood and so on, and they must not be covered up"
Have you noticed the moral values of magats? They are the same as the rich.
The rich only care about money, and the privilege it buys them.
Magats care only about their idiot myths, and one is being shattered.
Torchlight
(5,165 posts)Until she talked about the 'list on my desk right now' the topic had been just too weird for me to give consideration to.
Then without a cue, without bait, without strings, they began dancing to this new variation on an old, almost-forgotten one-hit wonder, and immediately began reacting to their own shadows.
Some stranger walks out of Dillard's as I'm walking in and says nothing to me except that he didn't steal anything from the store is, at its most benign, problematic to me.
Tommy Carcetti
(44,037 posts)Until she realized she couldn't do it any longer, and the only alternative would be to propagate an obviously fake "list" that would be easily debunked in an instant and probably ruin half of the people remaining in the DOJ.
She's basically Michael Scott in the "Health Care" episode of The Office.
Torchlight
(5,165 posts)and I doubt anyone's certainty will be available any time soon.
kentuck
(114,446 posts)...and probably knew a lot of the details even back then?
Tommy Carcetti
(44,037 posts)Bill McCollum was.
In 2007, she was a prosecutor up in Hillsborough County in the Tampa area. Epstein was in Palm Beach.
tulipsandroses
(7,709 posts)to get his non prosecution deal overturned. As AG, she took no interest?
Blue Full Moon
(2,475 posts)Who was Maxwell pimping out girls to?What is being used to blackmail republican politicians? Forgetting the lawsuit that trump and Epstein were both listed. Epstein and Ivana were supposed to testify but ended up dead. The judge in the case son was murdered instead of her. The case was dropped.
AZJonnie
(1,075 posts)Maxwell was convicted of 1 count of sex trafficking, involving 1 girl. And the client? Was Jeffery Epstein
tulipsandroses
(7,709 posts)and financial records.
The journalist (Julie K.Brown) that did the expose that forced the DOJ to arrest Epstein in 2019 - did an interview yesterday and she said she did not think that Epstein did all this by himself. She also talked about possible financial crimes. I have always thought that financial misdeeds were a big part of this cover up. Even if some of these folks were not engaged in sexual abuse/misconduct - they may have been involved in shady financial dealings.
Michael Wolff said Epstein showed him pictures of trump with young topless girls. He doesn't say how old the girls were.
I notice that trump has not threatened to sue Wolff, and Wolff is on record saying this multiple times in different interviews.
According to Wolff, Epstein said he had dirt on trump - "the kind of dirt that would have canceled the election". I have no idea what that means, maybe he was just blowing smoke. But one of the things he did talk about was trump and money laundering and the Russians. He probably knew a lot about that.
Going back to what Julie K. Brown said yesterday, she said she did the expose for the victims. Until then, they had not gotten justice, Epstein got a sweetheart deal, the girls - as young as 13 or 14 were accused of being prostitutes by the prosecutors that were supposed to be getting them justice. She reminded us that they are the real victims. They are more than just a meme or political toys and they deserve justice. In all of this, they are barely mentioned. Virginia Guffrie died by suicide recently. Ms.Brown also mentioned that others have not recovered, mental illness, substance abuse. Another victim filed a civil suit against a prominent NY psychiatrist ( a friend of Epstein - ) - whom she claimed sexually abused her and sex trafficked her. She was an adult at the time. The psychiatrist claimed he had a "non secret" consensual relationship with her. No such thing as a consensual relationship with a psychiatrist and a patient. If not criminal, it is unethical. She alleges that he forced her to have sex with other men while he watched. - I guess this is his "non secret" defense.
I do think there should be congressional hearings about who knew what, when and why.
Weinstein, R. Kelly. P. Diddy. All these men continued their disgusting behavior for many years as a "non secret". There are more of them out there.
TBA
(876 posts)Epstein Victims' Compensation Program (VCP) awarded over $121 million to 135 survivors of his abuse.
That ain't nuthin'.
AZJonnie
(1,075 posts)around and pimped by Epstein and Maxwell to have sex with the rich and powerful, right?
Even if the names aren't named, surely more of them described the pimping? AFAIK, only one ever has, and that's Virginia Giuffre but I won't claim to have exhaustively surveyed the records. Perhaps you can find other references to that sort of thing in court docs/records, or interviews with the victims? I mean, that's really all we need is a handful of the 135 to have said that sort of thing happened, and then it's pretty well-established and we can stop questioning whether it happened, we'll know it did, right?