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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It.
By Omer BartovDr. Bartov is a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University
At that point it appeared no longer possible to deny that the pattern of I.D.F. operations was consistent with the statements denoting genocidal intent made by Israeli leaders in the days after the Hamas attack. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had promised that the enemy would pay a huge price for the attack and that the I.D.F. would turn parts of Gaza, where Hamas was operating, into rubble, and he called on the residents of Gaza to leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere.
Mr. Netanyahu had urged his citizens to remember what Amalek did to you, a quote many interpreted as a reference to the demand in a biblical passage calling for the Israelites to kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings of their ancient enemy. Government and military officials said they were fighting human animals and, later, called for total annihilation. Nissim Vaturi, the deputy speaker of Parliament, said on X that Israels task must be erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Israels actions could be understood only as the implementation of the expressed intent to make the Gaza Strip uninhabitable for its Palestinian population. I believe the goal was and remains today to force the population to leave the Strip altogether or, considering that it has nowhere to go, to debilitate the enclave through bombings and severe deprivation of food, clean water, sanitation and medical aid to such an extent that it is impossible for Palestinians in Gaza to maintain or reconstitute their existence as a group.
My inescapable conclusion has become that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Having grown up in a Zionist home, lived the first half of my life in Israel, served in the I.D.F. as a soldier and officer and spent most of my career researching and writing on war crimes and the Holocaust, this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could. But I have been teaching classes on genocide for a quarter of a century. I can recognize one when I see one.
The continued denial of this designation by states, international organizations and legal and scholarly experts will cause unmitigated damage not just to the people of Gaza and Israel but also to the system of international law established in the wake of the horrors of the Holocaust, designed to prevent such atrocities from happening ever again. It is a threat to the very foundations of the moral order on which we all depend.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/15/opinion/israel-gaza-holocaust-genocide-palestinians.html?unlocked_article_code=1.XE8.cWEd.pnyuFpNwdv5F&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Celerity
(50,931 posts)Skittles
(166,079 posts)
irisblue
(35,438 posts)malaise
(286,733 posts)when I see it and it is taking place with Western complicity
democrank
(11,661 posts)druidity33
(6,787 posts)"NO WAY this could ever be genocide!" people around lately. Maybe it's become just too damn obvious?
Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)And I tried, time and again. I found that the facts are routinely being ignored, and opinions prevail. Too bad for the facts.
AloeVera
(3,274 posts)And take time to ponder what "never again" is supposed to mean.
Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)What I get in response (on the occasions when I get a response) amounts to nothing more than admonitions that deflect from the facts. And, naturally, in the absence of anything remotely substantial, laughable presumptions of higher moral ground.
And thank you for finally addressing my post with an illustration that is directly relevant to its content: a classic example of facts being routinely ignored, and opinions prevailing.
Too bad for the facts.
Eko
(9,470 posts)
Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)Eko
(9,470 posts)Not sure about yours. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3499210
Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)Eko
(9,470 posts)I guess that is just me.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3499219
LexVegas
(6,866 posts)Rob H.
(5,685 posts)It's fucking disgusting.
druidity33
(6,787 posts)and has no place in the hearts of thinking feeling people. If you have to dance around definitions and quibble and loudly protest because you are THAT CLOSE to genocide, but you're not quite there............. that's not a good look.
spanone
(139,649 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)He calls those views "denials:
In fact, this consensus is a downright rebuttal "by states, international organizations and legal and scholarly experts" of his opinion. Like everybody else with opinions, he has one, and none of these opinions, including his own, constitute a definitive verdict on the subject.
Many scholars are in disagreement with his scholarship: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/
Most Jews, including Holocaust survivors in and outside of Israel, reject his arguments: https://www.ajc.org/news/5-reasons-why-the-events-in-gaza-are-not-genocide
And here is a direct point by point rebuttal of this particular article: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/respectfully-professor-bartov-this-is-not-genocide/
Whatever gravitas Mr Bartow's credentials bring to his opinions, they are no substitute for the facts.
LexVegas
(6,866 posts)BeyondGeography
(40,548 posts)From the column:
More than 2,000 families have been wiped out, the health authorities said. In addition, 5,600 families now count only one survivor. At least 10,000 people are believed to still be buried under the ruins of their homes. More than 138,000 have been wounded and maimed.
Gaza now has the grim distinction of having the highest number of amputee children per capita in the world. An entire generation of children subjected to ongoing military attacks, loss of parents and long-term malnutrition will suffer severe physical and mental repercussions for the rest of their lives. Untold additional thousands of chronically ill persons have had little access to hospital care.
Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)BTW, using human shields is a war crime, equivalent to the taking of hostages.
BeyondGeography
(40,548 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,043 posts)That thousands of documented instances and explicit documented admissions to the crimes by the Hamas leadership is not equivalent to hearsay reports of individual soldiers and former detainees?
I agree.
AloeVera
(3,274 posts)He makes it clear there is a rift between genocide scholars and Holocaust scholars. The latter are the Gaza Genocide denialists, which I find ironic and sad.
In November, a little more than a year into the war, the Israeli genocide scholar Shmuel Lederman joined the growing chorus of opinion that Israel was engaged in genocidal actions. The Canadian international lawyer William Schabas came to the same conclusion last year and has recently described Israels military campaign in Gaza as absolutely a genocide.
Other genocide experts, such as Melanie OBrien, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the British specialist Martin Shaw (who has also said that the Hamas attack was genocidal), have reached the same conclusion, while the Australian scholar A. Dirk Moses of the City University of New York described these events in the Dutch publication NRC as a mix of genocidal and military logic. In the same article, Uğur Ümit Üngör, a professor at the Amsterdam-based NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust and Genocide Studies, said there are probably scholars who still do not think its genocide, but I dont know them.
He also says this about the denial:
This is another of the many incalculable costs of the current catastrophe. As Israel is literally trying to wipe out Palestinian existence in Gaza and is exercising increasing violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, the moral and historical credit that the Jewish state has drawn on until now is running out.
Israel and the denialists - of all stripes - would do well to heed this warning.
AloeVera
(3,274 posts)That Times of Israel blog was written by:
Seth Eisenberg is the author of Let It Out: A Guide for Emotional Release, Healing, and Connection. He is also President & CEO of the PAIRS Foundation, where he leads award-winning initiatives focused on trauma-informed care and emotional intelligence. Connect with him via linktr.ee/seth.eisenberg
Choices, choices....
cliffside
(1,043 posts)"... A Premier Tourist Destination
Gazas Mediterranean coastline has become a world-class tourist attraction, drawing millions of visitors each year. Luxury resorts, waterfront promenades, and cultural districts have turned the city into the Pearl of the Mediterranean. The historic markets of Khan Younis and Gaza City have been beautifully restored, offering visitors a taste of traditional Palestinian craftsmanship, food, and music.
New cultural festivals and global conferences make Gaza a center for diplomacy, art, and intellectual exchangea place where the world comes together.
Donald Trump Square: The Heart of Gazas Cultural Renaissance
At the center of Gaza City stands Donald Trump Square, a testament to the regions incredible transformation. Once a war-torn space, it is now a thriving public gathering place where residents and visitors come together for some of the citys biggest weekly events..."
AloeVera
(3,274 posts)Good catch.
Spinmeister for the "Trump Plan" of ethnic cleansing. Presented as an expert on genocide.
Perfect.
cliffside
(1,043 posts)uponit7771
(93,091 posts)AloeVera
(3,274 posts)Entire neighbourhoods are being bulldozed by private contractors or with controlled demolitions. So that people can never go back. The only place for them will be the ultra-crowded concentration camp they can only leave if they agree to be "transferred".
But domicide has been going on since October 8, 2023. Using the "human shields" excuse (lie). It was clear to some of us back then that the goal was to destroy all of Gaza and make it unlivable so Palestinians would be forced to leave. In other words, ethnically cleanse themselves so they could live. It was a disgusting plan of ethic cleansing from the start.
Nanjeanne
(6,294 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 20, 2025, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz is one people should really read. It examines how genocide can take root at the local levelturning neighbors, friends, and even family members against one anotheras seen through the eastern European border town of Buczacz during World War II.
He was on Democracy Now this morning. I will try to find his interview later when it will probably be posted.
There are so very many Jewish Israeli scholars, writers and thinkers worth knowing. He is one.
Uncle Joe
(62,349 posts)Thanks for the thread BeyondGeography
underpants
(191,522 posts)cliffside
(1,043 posts)partial transcript, full transcript at link.
"2:29
Well, there's perhaps no greater crime
2:31
than genocide. Our next guest, Domer
2:34
Bart, is professor of Holocaust and
2:37
genocide studies at Brown University. He
2:40
is an Israeli American scholar who's
2:43
been described as the US Holocaust
2:45
Memorial Museum as one of the world's
2:48
leading specialists on the subject of
2:50
genocide. And he's just written an op-ed
2:53
for the New York Times headlined, I'm a
2:56
genocide scholar. I know it when I see
2:59
it. Professor Bartoff joins us from
3:03
Cambridge, Massachusetts. Well, why
3:05
don't you, Professor Bartoff, and thanks
3:07
for joining us again. Lay out your case.
3:14
Well, thanks for having me again. Um,
3:17
the case that I made in the article and
3:20
that I've been making for a while is
3:23
that at the beginning immediately after
3:26
October 7th, the Hamas attack on October
3:29
7th, uh, Israeli political and military
3:33
leaders made a series of pronouncements
3:37
which could be interpreted as calling
3:39
for genocide. Um, but there was still no
3:43
at that point there was no evidence that
3:45
this was being implemented. Over time,
3:50
uh, and I would say by May of 2024, it
3:53
became apparent that these statements
3:56
were not only made in the heat of the
3:58
moment following the massacre by Hamas,
4:01
but were actually being implemented in a
4:04
manner that would make it impossible for
4:07
people to live in Gaza, make the entire
4:10
Gaza Strip uninhabitable, and make life
4:13
there impossible, as well as destroy all
4:17
the institutions there would be uh there
4:20
for that group to reconstitute itself as
4:23
a social, cultural, political group once
4:26
the violence was over. Of course, it's
4:28
not over yet. Um I started thinking that
4:32
in May in August that year, I wrote an
4:36
article that explained that. The
4:38
violence has only continued and the
4:41
attempt as you just reported to destroy
4:43
Gaza entirely has continued since and it
4:47
is now clear that Israel is trying to
4:50
concentrate the population of Gaza in
4:53
the southernmost parts of the strip to
4:56
enclose them and to enforce eventually
4:59
either that they would just die out
5:01
there or that they would be removed from
5:03
the Gaza Strip altogether........."
Initech
(105,672 posts)