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BeyondGeography

(40,548 posts)
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 04:21 AM Thursday

I'm a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It.

By Omer Bartov
Dr. Bartov is a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University

A month after the Hamas attack on Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, I believed there was evidence that the Israeli military had committed war crimes and potentially crimes against humanity in its counterattack on Gaza. But contrary to the cries of Israel’s fiercest critics, the evidence did not seem to me to rise to the crime of genocide. By May 2024, the Israel Defense Forces had ordered about one million Palestinians sheltering in Rafah — the southernmost and last remaining relatively undamaged city of the Gaza Strip — to move to the beach area of the Mawasi, where there was little to no shelter. The army then proceeded to destroy much of Rafah, a feat mostly accomplished by August.

At that point it appeared no longer possible to deny that the pattern of I.D.F. operations was consistent with the statements denoting genocidal intent made by Israeli leaders in the days after the Hamas attack. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had promised that the enemy would pay a “huge price” for the attack and that the I.D.F. would turn parts of Gaza, where Hamas was operating, “into rubble,” and he called on “the residents of Gaza” to “leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere.”

Mr. Netanyahu had urged his citizens to remember “what Amalek did to you,” a quote many interpreted as a reference to the demand in a biblical passage calling for the Israelites to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings” of their ancient enemy. Government and military officials said they were fighting “human animals” and, later, called for “total annihilation.” Nissim Vaturi, the deputy speaker of Parliament, said on X that Israel’s task must be “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israel’s actions could be understood only as the implementation of the expressed intent to make the Gaza Strip uninhabitable for its Palestinian population. I believe the goal was — and remains today — to force the population to leave the Strip altogether or, considering that it has nowhere to go, to debilitate the enclave through bombings and severe deprivation of food, clean water, sanitation and medical aid to such an extent that it is impossible for Palestinians in Gaza to maintain or reconstitute their existence as a group.
My inescapable conclusion has become that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Having grown up in a Zionist home, lived the first half of my life in Israel, served in the I.D.F. as a soldier and officer and spent most of my career researching and writing on war crimes and the Holocaust, this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could. But I have been teaching classes on genocide for a quarter of a century. I can recognize one when I see one.

…The continued denial of this designation by states, international organizations and legal and scholarly experts will cause unmitigated damage not just to the people of Gaza and Israel but also to the system of international law established in the wake of the horrors of the Holocaust, designed to prevent such atrocities from happening ever again. It is a threat to the very foundations of the moral order on which we all depend.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/15/opinion/israel-gaza-holocaust-genocide-palestinians.html?unlocked_article_code=1.XE8.cWEd.pnyuFpNwdv5F&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I'm a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It. (Original Post) BeyondGeography Thursday OP
K & R Celerity Thursday #1
"The Holy Land" Skittles Thursday #2
The author is not wrong irisblue Thursday #3
I am not a genocide scholar but I know genocide malaise Thursday #4
K & R democrank Thursday #5
I haven't seen any... druidity33 Thursday #6
And you will see even fewer of them. I found it utterly useless to counter opinions with facts. Beastly Boy Thursday #11
Nah. When neither facts nor morality are on your side, I'd be quiet too. AloeVera 13 hrs ago #24
Facts are on my side allright. I keep citing them again and again. Beastly Boy 11 hrs ago #29
With facts such as the ADL got canceled its a wonder anyone can even think of debating you. Eko 11 hrs ago #31
Ten minutes later, and your post didn't age well, did it? Beastly Boy 10 hrs ago #32
Mine aged very well. Eko 10 hrs ago #34
I see you are a big fan of rapid aging. Beastly Boy 10 hrs ago #35
I can tell you that I am not a fan of using right wing slogans. Eko 9 hrs ago #36
It's not genocide. nt LexVegas Thursday #13
Some of those same people are saying ethnic cleansing isn't taking place, either Rob H. Thursday #18
It's an academic argument... druidity33 Thursday #19
K&R spanone Thursday #7
The author admits that he is offering an opinion that is contrary to most other sources Beastly Boy Thursday #8
Why let that get in the way of the "concern"? nt LexVegas Thursday #9
Haaretz has some facts too BeyondGeography Thursday #12
And these facts are consistent with urban warfare involving human shields, not genocide. Beastly Boy Thursday #14
Haaretz has reported extensively on the IDF's use of Palestinians as human shields BeyondGeography Thursday #16
And your point is... what? Beastly Boy Thursday #17
You didn't read the article too closely, or something. AloeVera 15 hrs ago #22
Gee, who should I listen to? A genocide expert or an "emotional healing" blogger? AloeVera 15 hrs ago #23
Gaza 2035: A Beacon of Peace and Prosperity in the Flourishing Middle East by Seth Eisenberg - cliffside 12 hrs ago #25
Unbelievable. AloeVera 12 hrs ago #28
Spinmeister sounds right to me! "Donald Tump Square" :( nt cliffside 11 hrs ago #30
Domicide should be listed as a war crime too when it's this widespread uponit7771 Thursday #10
Especially when it's domicide in aid of ethnic cleansing. AloeVera 16 hrs ago #21
Omer Bartov is an incredible man and scholar I have been reading and listening to for years. His book, Nanjeanne Thursday #15
Kicked and recommended Uncle Joe Thursday #20
Bookmarked underpants 12 hrs ago #26
Thanks for sharing the full article! Below is an interview from 7/17 ... cliffside 12 hrs ago #27
Netanyahu - Trump - Putin - it's all connnected. Initech 10 hrs ago #33

malaise

(286,733 posts)
4. I am not a genocide scholar but I know genocide
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 06:04 AM
Thursday

when I see it and it is taking place with Western complicity

druidity33

(6,787 posts)
6. I haven't seen any...
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 06:17 AM
Thursday

"NO WAY this could ever be genocide!" people around lately. Maybe it's become just too damn obvious?



Beastly Boy

(13,043 posts)
11. And you will see even fewer of them. I found it utterly useless to counter opinions with facts.
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 08:38 AM
Thursday

And I tried, time and again. I found that the facts are routinely being ignored, and opinions prevail. Too bad for the facts.

AloeVera

(3,274 posts)
24. Nah. When neither facts nor morality are on your side, I'd be quiet too.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 08:46 PM
13 hrs ago

And take time to ponder what "never again" is supposed to mean.

Beastly Boy

(13,043 posts)
29. Facts are on my side allright. I keep citing them again and again.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 10:07 PM
11 hrs ago

What I get in response (on the occasions when I get a response) amounts to nothing more than admonitions that deflect from the facts. And, naturally, in the absence of anything remotely substantial, laughable presumptions of higher moral ground.

And thank you for finally addressing my post with an illustration that is directly relevant to its content: a classic example of facts being routinely ignored, and opinions prevailing.

Too bad for the facts.

Eko

(9,470 posts)
31. With facts such as the ADL got canceled its a wonder anyone can even think of debating you.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 10:49 PM
11 hrs ago

Rob H.

(5,685 posts)
18. Some of those same people are saying ethnic cleansing isn't taking place, either
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 11:31 AM
Thursday

It's fucking disgusting.

druidity33

(6,787 posts)
19. It's an academic argument...
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 01:04 PM
Thursday

and has no place in the hearts of thinking feeling people. If you have to dance around definitions and quibble and loudly protest because you are THAT CLOSE to genocide, but you're not quite there............. that's not a good look.



Beastly Boy

(13,043 posts)
8. The author admits that he is offering an opinion that is contrary to most other sources
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 08:33 AM
Thursday

He calls those views "denials:

…The continued denial of this designation by states, international organizations and legal and scholarly experts will cause unmitigated damage not just to the people of Gaza and Israel but also to the system of international law established in the wake of the horrors of the Holocaust, designed to prevent such atrocities from happening ever again. It is a threat to the very foundations of the moral order on which we all depend.


In fact, this consensus is a downright rebuttal "by states, international organizations and legal and scholarly experts" of his opinion. Like everybody else with opinions, he has one, and none of these opinions, including his own, constitute a definitive verdict on the subject.

Many scholars are in disagreement with his scholarship: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/

Most Jews, including Holocaust survivors in and outside of Israel, reject his arguments: https://www.ajc.org/news/5-reasons-why-the-events-in-gaza-are-not-genocide

And here is a direct point by point rebuttal of this particular article: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/respectfully-professor-bartov-this-is-not-genocide/

Whatever gravitas Mr Bartow's credentials bring to his opinions, they are no substitute for the facts.

BeyondGeography

(40,548 posts)
12. Haaretz has some facts too
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 08:42 AM
Thursday

From the column:

According to a recent investigation by Haaretz, an estimated 174,000 buildings have been destroyed or damaged, accounting for up to 70 percent of all structures in the Strip. So far, more than 58,000 people have been killed, according to Gazan health authorities, including more than 17,000 children, who make up nearly a third of the total fatality count. More than 870 of those children were less than a year old.

More than 2,000 families have been wiped out, the health authorities said. In addition, 5,600 families now count only one survivor. At least 10,000 people are believed to still be buried under the ruins of their homes. More than 138,000 have been wounded and maimed.

Gaza now has the grim distinction of having the highest number of amputee children per capita in the world. An entire generation of children subjected to ongoing military attacks, loss of parents and long-term malnutrition will suffer severe physical and mental repercussions for the rest of their lives. Untold additional thousands of chronically ill persons have had little access to hospital care.

Beastly Boy

(13,043 posts)
14. And these facts are consistent with urban warfare involving human shields, not genocide.
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 09:08 AM
Thursday

BTW, using human shields is a war crime, equivalent to the taking of hostages.

Beastly Boy

(13,043 posts)
17. And your point is... what?
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 09:24 AM
Thursday

That thousands of documented instances and explicit documented admissions to the crimes by the Hamas leadership is not equivalent to hearsay reports of individual soldiers and former detainees?

I agree.

AloeVera

(3,274 posts)
22. You didn't read the article too closely, or something.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 06:34 PM
15 hrs ago

He makes it clear there is a rift between genocide scholars and Holocaust scholars. The latter are the Gaza Genocide denialists, which I find ironic and sad.

Those engaged in the worldwide culture of commemoration and remembrance built around the Holocaust will have to confront a moral reckoning. The wider community of genocide scholars — those engaged in the study of comparative genocide or of any one of the many other genocides that have marred human history — is now edging ever closer toward a consensus over describing events in Gaza as a genocide.

In November, a little more than a year into the war, the Israeli genocide scholar Shmuel Lederman joined the growing chorus of opinion that Israel was engaged in genocidal actions. The Canadian international lawyer William Schabas came to the same conclusion last year and has recently described Israel’s military campaign in Gaza as “absolutely” a genocide.

Other genocide experts, such as Melanie O’Brien, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the British specialist Martin Shaw (who has also said that the Hamas attack was genocidal), have reached the same conclusion, while the Australian scholar A. Dirk Moses of the City University of New York described these events in the Dutch publication NRC as a “mix of genocidal and military logic.” In the same article, Uğur Ümit Üngör, a professor at the Amsterdam-based NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust and Genocide Studies, said there are probably scholars who still do not think it’s genocide, but “I don’t know them.”


He also says this about the denial:

To this day, only a few scholars of the Holocaust — and no institutions dedicated to researching and commemorating it — have issued warnings that Israel could be accused of carrying out war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing or genocide. This silence has made a mockery of the slogan “Never again,” transforming its meaning from an assertion of resistance to inhumanity wherever it is perpetrated to an excuse, an apology, indeed, even a carte blanche for destroying others by invoking one’s own past victimhood.

This is another of the many incalculable costs of the current catastrophe. As Israel is literally trying to wipe out Palestinian existence in Gaza and is exercising increasing violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, the moral and historical credit that the Jewish state has drawn on until now is running out.


Israel and the denialists - of all stripes - would do well to heed this warning.

AloeVera

(3,274 posts)
23. Gee, who should I listen to? A genocide expert or an "emotional healing" blogger?
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 06:44 PM
15 hrs ago

That Times of Israel blog was written by:

Seth Eisenberg is the author of Let It Out: A Guide for Emotional Release, Healing, and Connection. He is also President & CEO of the PAIRS Foundation, where he leads award-winning initiatives focused on trauma-informed care and emotional intelligence. Connect with him via linktr.ee/seth.eisenberg

Choices, choices....

cliffside

(1,043 posts)
25. Gaza 2035: A Beacon of Peace and Prosperity in the Flourishing Middle East by Seth Eisenberg -
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 09:04 PM
12 hrs ago
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/gaza-2035-a-beacon-of-peace-and-prosperity-in-the-flourishing-middle-east/


"... A Premier Tourist Destination

Gaza’s Mediterranean coastline has become a world-class tourist attraction, drawing millions of visitors each year. Luxury resorts, waterfront promenades, and cultural districts have turned the city into the “Pearl of the Mediterranean.” The historic markets of Khan Younis and Gaza City have been beautifully restored, offering visitors a taste of traditional Palestinian craftsmanship, food, and music.

New cultural festivals and global conferences make Gaza a center for diplomacy, art, and intellectual exchange—a place where the world comes together.

Donald Trump Square: The Heart of Gaza’s Cultural Renaissance

At the center of Gaza City stands Donald Trump Square, a testament to the region’s incredible transformation. Once a war-torn space, it is now a thriving public gathering place where residents and visitors come together for some of the city’s biggest weekly events..."


AloeVera

(3,274 posts)
28. Unbelievable.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 09:37 PM
12 hrs ago

Good catch.

Spinmeister for the "Trump Plan" of ethnic cleansing. Presented as an expert on genocide.

Perfect.

AloeVera

(3,274 posts)
21. Especially when it's domicide in aid of ethnic cleansing.
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 05:09 PM
16 hrs ago

Entire neighbourhoods are being bulldozed by private contractors or with controlled demolitions. So that people can never go back. The only place for them will be the ultra-crowded concentration camp they can only leave if they agree to be "transferred".

But domicide has been going on since October 8, 2023. Using the "human shields" excuse (lie). It was clear to some of us back then that the goal was to destroy all of Gaza and make it unlivable so Palestinians would be forced to leave. In other words, ethnically cleanse themselves so they could live. It was a disgusting plan of ethic cleansing from the start.

Nanjeanne

(6,294 posts)
15. Omer Bartov is an incredible man and scholar I have been reading and listening to for years. His book,
Thu Jul 17, 2025, 09:13 AM
Thursday

Last edited Sun Jul 20, 2025, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz is one people should really read. It examines how genocide can take root at the local level—turning neighbors, friends, and even family members against one another—as seen through the eastern European border town of Buczacz during World War II.

He was on Democracy Now this morning. I will try to find his interview later when it will probably be posted.

There are so very many Jewish Israeli scholars, writers and thinkers worth knowing. He is one.

cliffside

(1,043 posts)
27. Thanks for sharing the full article! Below is an interview from 7/17 ...
Sun Jul 20, 2025, 09:29 PM
12 hrs ago

partial transcript, full transcript at link.


"2:29
Well, there's perhaps no greater crime
2:31
than genocide. Our next guest, Domer
2:34
Bart, is professor of Holocaust and
2:37
genocide studies at Brown University. He
2:40
is an Israeli American scholar who's
2:43
been described as the US Holocaust
2:45
Memorial Museum as one of the world's
2:48
leading specialists on the subject of
2:50
genocide. And he's just written an op-ed
2:53
for the New York Times headlined, I'm a
2:56
genocide scholar. I know it when I see
2:59

it. Professor Bartoff joins us from
3:03
Cambridge, Massachusetts. Well, why
3:05
don't you, Professor Bartoff, and thanks
3:07
for joining us again. Lay out your case.
3:14
Well, thanks for having me again. Um,
3:17
the case that I made in the article and
3:20
that I've been making for a while is
3:23
that at the beginning immediately after
3:26
October 7th, the Hamas attack on October
3:29
7th, uh, Israeli political and military
3:33
leaders made a series of pronouncements
3:37
which could be interpreted as calling
3:39
for genocide. Um, but there was still no
3:43
at that point there was no evidence that
3:45
this was being implemented. Over time,
3:50
uh, and I would say by May of 2024, it
3:53
became apparent that these statements
3:56
were not only made in the heat of the
3:58
moment following the massacre by Hamas,
4:01
but were actually being implemented in a
4:04
manner that would make it impossible for
4:07
people to live in Gaza, make the entire
4:10
Gaza Strip uninhabitable, and make life
4:13
there impossible, as well as destroy all
4:17
the institutions there would be uh there
4:20
for that group to reconstitute itself as
4:23
a social, cultural, political group once
4:26
the violence was over. Of course, it's
4:28
not over yet. Um I started thinking that
4:32
in May in August that year, I wrote an
4:36
article that explained that. The
4:38
violence has only continued and the
4:41
attempt as you just reported to destroy
4:43
Gaza entirely has continued since and it
4:47
is now clear that Israel is trying to
4:50
concentrate the population of Gaza in
4:53
the southernmost parts of the strip to
4:56
enclose them and to enforce eventually
4:59
either that they would just die out
5:01
there or that they would be removed from
5:03
the Gaza Strip altogether........."




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