I even if you agree with them, you could at least have the sense that such a motion is not helpful right now.

And I'm all for giving it to them or at least figuring out some land swaps that are reasonable. There are some very hard negotiations to be done to create a such a map.

Do you think Israel has a right to exist or do you think all of Israel should be given to the Palestinians?
Do you understand why right of return to Israel for Palestinians is impossible?

eventually leading to the creation of Israel, is, as I said, a difficult one. What of the Palestinians/Arabs who never left?

Just as here in the US, it's incredibly hard to carve out a multi-ethnic and multi-religious land that is shared with interests of all considered. Believe me I know as an African American borne and raised here.

Inevitably there willl be hills and valleys and violence, as witnessed by what's stlll happens here and what's going on in Israel.

It's hard to share, but IMO it should be the goal. The founding fathers here had lofty opinions, had many differences yet left behind two profound documents that have influenced much of the world...the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

We're stull tryng to get there, and so s Israel. Netanyahu's long reign is is a long standing and imposing impediment
though. He, Likud and all the other hard right forces have to someway be mediated. And of course Hamas has to be defeated.

It's hard.

Let me give you my perspective on Right of Return. You can disagree with it, that's fine. I think it is helpful to understand the motivations of those you are debating.

During the Holocaust Jews were trying to escape and country after country refused to let them in. Your platitudes about the US are nice, but looking at current events in the US and history of the world, I do not trust the US or any country in the world to protect Jews. My Ex's great-grandfather was a decorated soldier in Germany in World War I. He thought of himself as a German. He refused to leave. His country would never do anything to him. He was murdered in the Holocaust.

All of us living together in one country in peace sounds great, but history and experience has taught me not to trust. I believe that there should be one country in the world that is for Jews. A country that Jews can depend on. Palestinians cannot return to Israel because Jews would no longer be the majority. Israel would cease to be Israel and a state that Jews could depend on.

Was it fair that Palestinians lost their homes due to the creation of Israel? No, but there is no way to undo that. The question is if there a path forward to create a home for the Palestinians? I hope there is.

I've leave you with a poem of sorts. It is actually dialog from an episode of West Wing about fictional peace accord between the Israelis and the Palestinians brokered by the US. It reverberates in my mind when I think of this issue.

I didn't intend to mouth platitudes about the US, that is not my way as I am not an ass kissing tom about the US. I have many grievances, but I'll be damned if I'll be run out of this nation because my ancestors, and I, helped build this country. I guess Jews feel the same way about Israel.

I know of the ships of Jewish refugees from Germany during and after WWll being turned away. It must hurt as persecution does to all who are victims of it. I've always felt that Black people and Jews have a commonality in that regard, whch is why I feel for the Palestinians in Gaza. And I sense that you kinda feel the same way.

Again, it's hard.

I'm assuming you are referring to trying the notion of Jews and Palestinians coexisting in the same country. I stopped and thought about it and if I'm being completely honest, no, I can't see myself living in a majority Arab or Muslim country. There is a visceral rejection of that. 25% of Israelis are Arabs (Palestinians), so we can live together, but I can't see giving up control of Israel. When I was in Israel, I stayed in a Muslim town and a Druze town and I felt perfectly comfortable there. My least favorite place was Tel Aviv.

My current theory is that the least racist countries are countries that have small minority populations. The majority just doesn't feel threatened by them. Once the tides turn, racism spikes. There are exceptions of course.

I like the fact you are determined to save America. I just finished reading The 1619 Project. You can write the next chapter of how Blacks had to save America. Personally, I'm contemplating emigrating somewhere else. My roots are not as deep as yours and I'm feeling very disgusted.

The Middle East? Israel? The Caribbean? Mexico where the cost of living is much lower?

trump's not going to last much longer.

My sister is closing on a house in Costa Rica.
My cousin has papers in for citizenship in Croatia.
A close friend is in Barcelona.

I don't think we will go to Israel. There is something deeply moving about being there, but the religious hold too much power. I'm not fond of theocracies even if it is my own religion. Israel is more of "incase of emergency, break glass" kind of place.

My wife and I were discussing the idea that Trump won't last. Yeah, Trump won't last, but we can't pretend somebody didn't just say we should feed 65M Hispanics to alligators without being cancelled. Before social media, I was able to live in my little bubble and pretend these types of people were not common. Now I see it every day. My wife says it is a cult and when the cult leader dies, people will snap out of it. I think Trump simply emboldened people to say the awful things they were thinking. Time will tell.

I'm sure we'll run into each other again on a DU thread.

Be careful. My wife and I visited Rosarito, Mexico, south of Tiajuana on the Baja penisula, thinking about joining ex-pat community there. One of the real estate agents warned us though that we would need body guards as bandits prey on ex-pats. That was it, my wife was ready to leave after that.

And Jews should go back where they came from.
Or am I mistaken?

For whatever conflict I have with that the same area is a holy area for 3 religions and the conflict that dividing that area creates, Israel absolutely has a right to exist. One of the things history teaches is that a people without a state will struggle. Look at Chinese treatment of minorities, European and American treatment of native populations, nazi treatment of Jews, Roma, etc.

I disagree with some of the Israeli government's actions, but I do that with every government.

That does mean I also believe the Palestinians should have their own state, but their leaders unfortunately have made it really difficult to trust them with that. And that's before even trying to figure out how to divide the holy sites and make sure that Hamas doesn't become the government of a Palestinian state since their mission statement is no Israel and a commitment to violent ends.

murder of all Palestinians in the West Bank, once they finish off Gaza, well, the Palestinians in Gaza. The land will be developed into luxury resorts for the very wealthy.

NEVER!

and weapons

....nothing to see here from the anti-islamics

( for the record....I am not impressed by either side and find the justification for death and destruction through religion revolting )

A debate which will enable to defeat the motion which will otherwise remain unopposed.

In either case, as the article states, "Motions for the agenda have no practical implications and will not impact the legal status of the West Bank.'

Let the outrage hit the fan.

A recent poll among Israeli Jews, as reported in Haaretz, produced truly shocking results: 82 percent of respondents reportedly supported the forcible expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, while 56 percent supported expelling Palestinian citizens of Israel. The poll suggests an extreme reality and has garnered significant attention.

We, too, were alarmed by these findings, for an additional reason: we believe they are wrong.

At around the same time this poll was conducted, Tel Aviv University fielded a comprehensive, large-scale survey as part of its ongoing Israel National Election Studies research project. In that study, participants were asked whether they would support a solution for Gaza that includes transferring its population to another country or countries. Among Jewish respondents, agreement stood at 53 percent, and among the entire Israeli population – including Arab citizens – it was 45 percent.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-06-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/do-82-of-israelis-really-back-expulsion-of-gazans-the-data-tells-a-different-story/00000197-39da-da41-a9f7-3dde468d0000?gift=240e2cb9b9364adba9194c11cf951d2b

53% for Israeli Jews is still crazy high, but the previous study looks highly flawed. Let me know if this Gift Link doesn't work.

Cheers.

will the Palestinians already living there become full-fledged Israeli citizens?

If Israel were to annex the West Bank, I really doubt they would make the Palestinians citizens. I also really doubt they will annex it.

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2025, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)

The fear is that Jews would become the minority in Israel in a few decades.

Israel's birthrate is 2.89/woman. It's 3.3 in the West Bank/Gaza. Not terribly different.