It will be a world historic humanitarian catastrophe. It will make the deaths so far look like minor preamble. The reason Trump and the Europeans are all fleeing from Netanyahu on aid is because their people are telling them what's going to happen in no uncertain terms. They're trying to get out from under it. It's probably too late many.

Every supporter of Israel should be banging the table demanding immediate massive food aid to Gaza now. Now! Instead, many are posting little videos of trucks claiming that Hamas is stealing all the aid and the usual deflection tactics. It's absolutely a mistake and very bad miscalculation. This is a human-made famine that will kill tens of thousands and it is 100% attributable to the IDF blockade. It's going to reshape world opinion for decades.

Stewart is absolutely right.

omfg

But apparently, they mean it only for themselves.

Jews are now "they."
We are talking about the actions of Israel, not just Jews am I correct? Or is there no difference between the two?

But it seems many are unaware and conflate the two, using the terms synonymously.

Like the United States.

“They?”
If you read just up a couple of comments, the writer said “Every supporter of Israel.”
I wonder why this is so triggering. Parsing and splitting hairs is not a good look, on the eve of mass starvation.

As for “ Every supporter of Israel.”, earlier today it was asserted that one of the reasons for antisemitism was because every Jew supports every action of Israel without question.
Within the last hour a poster referred to the word antisemitism as a “silly term”

It is surprising how many who oppose collective punishment are rather blasé about assigning collective guilt. I do not see that as splitting hairs, YMMV

I read “Every supporter of Israel” in this context, as spoken by Mandy Patinkin as “Every supporter of Israel.”

Assigning collective guilt does not appear to be involved in his comment.

I explained my reasoning. I can condemn the starvation in Gaza without assigning guilt to Jews around the world.

Old tropes are being used on a daily basis. Here on DU antisemitism has been called “understandable” because of the actions of Israel. Any other prejudice been labeled “understandable” because of the actions of a subset? I think the answer is absolutely not.

I have never called any criticism of the Israeli government antisemitic, as long as it was directed towards the government and not Judaism.

and yes, they are people, despite those who don't think that is true, also have to weigh the possibility of getting shot to death by the IDF while attempting to access food aid against starvation.

So, they end up going to the aid site, each hoping that they will live long enough to take food back to their families. Some don't, because it's a game to some people.

before resorting to live ammunition?

And razor wire (!) for the "pens" herding people towards their deaths.

Both in NATO and Israeli militaries. Green is standard ball ammunition.

A literal "Hunger Games". How twisted and perverse. What kind of species are we?

The Post has been running articles about the starving Palestinians, and today they gave photos of some if the children who gave died. I’ve been surprised at the number of articles given Bezos’ push to the right. Comments on the articles have been overwhelmingly against Israel and against their continued existence because Israel’s creation by displacing the native Palestinians is seen as a big mistake. There are still a very few diehard commenters excusing everything Israel does and saying that Hamas can end the war today by releasing all the remaining hostages and giving themselves up to the IDF, who would most likely execute them immediately. Even if Hamas surrendered, Israel would claim that not all if them dud and they must continue the killing. This war is now about stealing all the land of Gaza, not ending Hamas, and getting rid of all the Palestinians there by any means available.

Look up the meaning of ‘prisoner’ and ‘execution’ and the answer will become clear.

I am now

I mean, sure, they're shooting starving civilians in the streets, but they wouldn't shoot prisoners!

That's why I'm reacting this way. The only one ever executed was Eichmann. Same with the genocide accusations.
Obviously Israeli soldiers shouldn't be manning food distribution points, and they obviously shouldn't limit it to 4 locations, but obviously they felt threatened on the occasions of the shootings.
Now think what would befall an Israeli child that finds itself in the hands of Gazans.

Over half of them have been women and children. Let’s stop defending this crap. I don’t care it’s evil.

There has been verified video of children dying from starvation. This is not complicated. No hair splitting. You think it's justified to let a 5 yr old child die of starvation?
As someone that was once homeless and could regularly go days without eating, I can only imagine how horrible an experience it is for a little child to starve to death.

Better than 59,000 have been killed half our women and children. Evil.

What are they still fighting for, the right to continue trying to erase Israel and the Israelis?

How about survival? If Hamas completely disarmed and turned over all the hostages Israel would round up everyone even remotely suspected of belonging to Hamas and drive the remaining starving people of Gaza south into open air prison camps.

Oh, sorry. You did say prisoners. Guess starving people don't count. to you.

Sure, the immediate goals were related to self-defence and the hostages, but the war was fought from the very beginning with that goal in mind. The crowded, urban reality of Gaza was used as a pretext to level it and the rationale for such destruction was swallowed whole - or played along with - by Western governments.

It's because no one stepped in, no one put a stop to the industrialized killing and war crimes, despite mounting evidence, that Israel became more and more emboldened in its lawlessness and cruelty and its ultra-nationalist right-wing is now brazenly is talking about resettling 1.2 MILLION Israeli Jews into Gaza, with resorts on the beach.

So now we've arrived at the point where even Western leaders can no longer abide it. But it's too late. It's a failure of conscience and humanity of historic proportions.

Mandy Patinkin on Gaza: A Plea to Jews

Have you forgotten the sexual terrorism of Oct 7th? Have you watched the videos of the attack? Did you forget there are still dozens of hostages that were taken that day?

Of course all lives matter, but under that banner Hamas can launch a sexual terrorist attack and throw up their hands and say "All Lives Matter Equally" and run off to the tunnels with their victims, unscathed? Do you really believe such inanity?

We clearly see that not all lives have equal value in this "war". Not just regarding Palestinians, but hostages too, who have been sacrificed by Netanyahu for what he considers the "greater good" of the rest of Israelis.

I think anyone who is still using Oct 7th to justify Israel's actions is not seeing clearly the apocalypse unfolding in Gaza and undoubtedly is trying to deflect from it. The theme of unequal lives is very much a factor here, hence how I phrased my previous post.

that he’s starving the hostages to death?

Let Gaza remain Palestinian - allowing for a flicker of hope for a Palestinian state - or risk the hostages.

He made the same choice every time he undermined or scuttled the ceasefire negotiations.

I think much of the protests against him are about the sacrificing of the hostages.

There is some movement now in Israel for protests against the treatment of Palestinians but still not ENOUGH! I hope it grows and quickly.

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2025, 06:56 PM - Edit history (1)

You seem to have carved out an exception for those lives.

How many tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians does Netanyahu get to murder before his tireless apologists cry foul?

I’m guessing, from all available information, that no such figure exists.

Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped out to its last member. Meanwhile Netanyahu is bombing hospitals and is starving children.

The nation of Israel has forfeited any moral authority that it might once have claimed.

Gaza and the West Bank....of course, to create the "Greater Israel" his right wing backers want, he'll have to find a pretext to move on to other countries after that.

Or to attack the character of Jews speaking against the ongoing atrocity being committed in their name?

Do you honestly think Mandy Patankin and others have forgotten about the atrocities committed by Hamas on Oct 7 two years ago, or did not passionately condemn that evil attack as did most of the world?

Please explain the argument you're trying to make by asking those questions.

Civilized people can abhor and denounce the cruelty and brutality committed on more than one group of innocent people.

Wrong is wrong regardless of who is the perpetrator or who is the victim.

Or you would have posted the video. I couldn't find any such video.

And leave Bibi’s tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian victims out of it.

And, yesterday at the UN, Qatar, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Arab League finally did.

The attacks on innocent Palestinians are no less horrific. About 1200 people died on Oct. 7. Over 60.000 people have been killed in Gaza since then, with many more to come if the current situation continues.

How on earth can you justify such slaughter?

The attacks on Gaza are five times as horrific as Oct 7th. 1200 X 5=60,000.
I actually believe that each loss of life is an infinite tragedy unto itself.. 72000 sacred human lives have ended in this fucking conflict and the people with the power are too fucking stupid to stop it. We desperately need empathetic grownups in charge.

Do you consider that a moral position?

The phrase “an eye for an eye” is found in a number of places in the Bible. Does this mean that we actually poke out the eye of an eye-poker? Contrary to what some would like to claim, this phrase was never understood or applied in the literal sense. Rather, according to the Oral Torah, this is a directive for monetary compensation to the injured party, as evidenced by the Targum's translation of the phrase.

The Rambam:

How do we know that the intent of the Torah's statement with regard to the loss of a limb, "an eye for an eye," is financial restitution? That same verse continues "a blow for a blow." And with regard to the penalty for giving a colleague a blow, it is explicitly stated: "When a man strikes his colleague with a stone or a fist . . . he should pay for his being idled and for his medical expenses."5 Thus, we learn that the word tachat (תחת mentioned with regard to a blow indicates the necessity for financial restitution, and so one can conclude that the meaning of the same word with regard to an eye or another limb is also financial restitution.6

1200 X 50 = 60,000.

I am appalled by what happened on October 7th. It sounds like you are fully committed to the revenge business. I’m sure that you will understand when everyone who survives Gaza wants to exact revenge for what Israel has done to Gaza and on Ana’s on and on…….. you people are crazy. One would hope that your religion would give you the strength and Grace to end the cycle.

And people of conscience have condemned it multiple times.

That day was so horrific that it has blinded so many to atrocities that are being perpetrated on innocent, starving civilians today.

I hope the people fixated on Oct. 7 above all things can look around and see, truly see, the people dying from hunger and acknowledge the killing of aid workers who are trying to alleviate suffering.

You are the only person on this thread to use that word, so you obviously are reacting to general condemnation of the current policies in Israel upon Gaza as inhumane and are trying to change the subject. The GOP and MAGA use the "Whatabout ______?" deflection all the time.

Intent matters. The people of Israel bear no ill will towards the people of Palestine. How could they after the horrors they experienced at the hands of so many?

What we see now is the anti-Semitic trope of inversion. Because Israel defends itself from the aggression of Hamas it is painted as the aggressor rather than the victim protecting itself.

We must always remember the hostages and the horrors of October 7th. Never forget is the mantra. We must all stand united against the real terrorists of this time: Hamas.

Seriously?????

Contradicted by mountains of evidence and reflected and enforced/pushed by YOUR OWN WORDS:

"We must always remember the hostages and the horrors of October 7th. Never forget is the mantra."

The people of Israel have conflated Palestinians with Hamas. So has their government, and so it appears have you.

Intent? Clear as day if you have eyes to see what has been done to Gaza and Palestinians. The conflation led to the formation of intent and the methodical carrying out of it. The apocalyptic results tell the story.

Where they should not have been but it’s their domain now. This generation after generations of keeping one set of people behind barriers for working opportunities, moving freely, inferior infrastructure and lack of equality in healthcare and education will, as history has proven, perpetuate another generation of resentment and prejudice and more death. People want to live freely and control their destiny but when a heavy hand is preventing those basic needs, you get what has been going on now,

You say "The people of Israel bear no ill will towards the people of Palestine." Let's look at a couple of polls.

"The survey conducted by Professor Tamir Sorek of Pennsylvania State University, published here in Haaretz together with Professor Shay Hazkani, examined what the authors called "eliminatory" attitudes among Jewish Israelis and their theological roots. A majority of 56 percent of Jews supported the "transfer (forced expulsion) of Arab citizens of Israel to other countries." And when asked directly whether they agreed with the position that the IDF, "when conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites acted when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, namely, to kill all its inhabitants?" nearly half, 47 percent, agreed.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/poll-show-most-jewish-israelis-support-expelling-gazans

Here's another one for you. "A poll from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem in early June provided a chilling statistic: An overwhelming majority of Jewish Israelis agree with the idea of there being “no innocents in Gaza.” 64% of the Israeli public agree with this statement, almost two out of three people. But it is actually considerably higher among Jewish Israelis, because that number is weighted by Palestinians with Israeli citizenship.
https://mondoweiss.net/2025/07/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-jewish-israelis-share-genocidal-belief-there-are-no-innocent-people-in-gaza/

So yeah, contrary to your assertions many of Israelis bear a whole lot of ill will towards Palestinians.

It's saying that because Jewish people suffered they can't possibly do similar things. That's a ludicrous claim given for example about a third of people abused as kids grow up to be abusers themselves.

If you can't defend Israel's actions on their own merits (the same goes for people who try to justify the actions of Hamas), then you can't defend their actions.

This is one of the classic anti-Semitic tropes, that you are somehow being silenced from criticizing Israel, that there is some insidious Jewish plan to prevent discussion.

And all this time we are being divided against each other, when we should be united against Hamas and condemning their actions on October 7th, of sexual terrorism. We must work to secure a peace and anti-Semitism does not help to accomplish that goal.

I'm pointing out the hollow logic you're using. Notice how you just went to claims that I'm part of an insidious plot against Jewish people rather than actually trying to argue against what I said?

Pretending that one group of people can't commit war crimes because war crimes were committed against that group historically isn't a valid argument. As noted there's a correlation between the abused becoming the abuser. Merely claiming it's impossible isn't evidence. Please explain why you think it's impossible or accept that you're going to get pushback on a theory that isn't supported by logic or history. That you haven't defended what Israel is doing, instead deflecting about the war crimes committed by Hamas or claims of antisemitism, suggests that you can't.

But let's take another example. The George W Bush administration used the threat of terrorism to justify torture. Was that acceptable because al Queda and then ISIS have committed terrorism and war crimes? I would say no because one crime doesn't justify another.

Without it, our world is Gaza.

What Stewart said was Netanyahu's government is bad for the Jewish state, and being effectively antisemitic.

So you're saying that one Jew shouldn't be criticising another. And then you go on to accuse a Jew of Holocaust inversion.

He's turned the memories of the Holocaust, and Israel's righteous actions of the past, into nothing more than political capital.

Moshe Dayan is spinning in his grave.

Hamas that invaded Israel on October 7th.

Hamas that committed sexual terrorism.

Hamas that kidnapped Israel victims.

Hamas that denies Israel's right to exist.

HAMAS is the enemy, do not let them fool you!

Rec

Native Americans have every right and have had that right since 1492 to wipe out any White American and at any time? I guess 'cuz they were attacked, tortured and killed by White People who wanted their land and/or any other reason they could try to justify!

I'm as tired of the defense of Israel and the response "we've been attacked so we have the right to kill anyone because...holocaust!"

Do the Vietnamese Civilians who were not involved in a war who were killed by American Bombers have the right to attack and kill any American? According to some...those people believe that.
And let's not even try to condemn Iraqi or Afghani's to be "allowed" by this convoluted logic to attack and kill Americans, also.

And stick religion where the sun don't shine. Eye for an eye is Biblically acceptable to some but fictional in fact. Humanity has laws. I don't care what religion you claim as yours.Your religious beliefs are your own and not to be construed or required to apply to me. Further, your "religious beliefs" are just that, beliefs, not facts. Your Religion is not my law.

You know, if any Native American decides they want that "eye for an eye" against white Americans or even those entitled who use "we suffered" language or semi-logic, and who still believe in unlimited, long dead retribution for ANY reason, I support the Native Americans. Those "entitled people" are no better than Donald Trump!

So I guess Native Americans can kill off any Entitled White American because...1492, Trail of Tears,etc.

Oh, and as an after thought, if one commenter (of any ancestry or nationality) here kills a member of my family do I now or in x number of years, have the right to kill ALL of that commenter's family? It would seem so using their logic.

Just curious.

It's a punishment or payment for a significant wrong or a crime against someone, and it's supposed stop there, not continue to escalate.
Instead, we're getting "you hit me (add in, you offend me and are in the way of my plans for the future), so I'm gonna destroy you".

Listed one baby killed in her father’s arms on Oct 7 - Mila Cohen 10 months old plus newspapers listed 38 other deaths of children under 18. It’s extremely sad sad - but in response Israel has killed thousand of babies and newborns and tens of thousands of kids and maimed abou 3 or 4 thousand kids who have no arms, legs, eyes, parents etc.

Sounds like Israel is especially into killing the kids as drs report soldiers shoot different parts of kids bodies on different days - one day kids are shot in head, next day chest and lots of young teenage boys shot in testicules.

You've seen the fake video that's all too real.
Screenshots:





Capitalism as war crimes.

or face world-wine recriminations.

Step back to 80 years ago. The US and its allies destroyed Japan and Germany. What did the US do? It came to help and built national friendships between former enemies because it helped to feed and rebuild those nations.

Israel needs to learn this lesson STAT!

is that those nations acknowledged defeat and sought reconciliation.

Consider that we who post here have differing opinions, and we're supposedly a bit of like minds.

It's as simple as that. BiBi and his cohorts are genocidal maniacs who want no less than to kill or eject all of the people living in Palestine. Has nothing to do with supporting Israel's existence, or fighting Hamas, it's about genocide for these far right nuts.

In those words is reflected a value system - an ideology - that has doomed Palestinians for a hundred years with the denouement being played out in front of our eyes now.

Hamas leaders are not real Gazans and are using them as puppets. So, why not show the people that Hamas is the enemy, not themselves?

They are certainly the functional leaders of Gaza and are Gazans. Maybe you can make an exception for the West Bank and the Palestinians Authority.

Neither side's government or population has clean hands.

The murderers are always able to justify the killings by finding some sacred cause.

Nationalism aka patriotism: as in "my people are more precious than any otter people".
Religion: "My All Powerful God" needs protection from people who have another God or no God.
Orders: We kill people because our government and our God tell us to.
Conformity: Everybody does it so I have to kill like everybody else.
Holy Land: Our dirt is more blessed than your dirt and we'll take yours so we can bless it.
Fear: Bad things will happen if we don';t kill them.
Money: War is s racket and profitable.

The long sad story of the human race. The whole old Testament is mostly about genocide. Recently even the idiot shrub got reelected by starting a useless war (unless you make money from it. As A. Philip Randolf said : "When you make war unprofitable you make it imppssible." The media will sell a war just like everything else because there is money to be made. The Palestinian genocide has been going on a long time. It's just in the final stage, now. The saddest part to me is that the rest of the arab world is complicit and just uses the Palestinians for their own gain.

The long sad story of the human race. The whole old Testament is mostly about genocide. Recently even the idiot shrub got reelected by starting a useless war (unless you make money from it. As A. Philip Randolf said : "When you make war unprofitable you make it imppssible." The media will sell a war just like everything else because there is money to be made. The Palestinian genocide has been going on a long time. It's just in the final stage, now. The saddest part to me is that the rest of the arab world is complicit and just uses the Palestinians for their own gain.

Dem Krystal Ball & Republican Saagar good interview. Krystal asking the important questions.
Some might not like Dems asking Dems hard questions but I think it’s good - it’s forcing our Dems to do more to stop the genocide.

Link to tweet

The German government started a war and 600,000 German civilians, including children, were killed by allied air raids.

The Japanese government started a war and almost one million Japanese civilians, including children, were killed. (About 250,000 were killed by the atomic bombs, the rest were killed by air raids.)

Hamas is the government of Gaza. Hamas started a war with Israel. Civilians in Gaza are suffering.

After the second bomb fell on Nagasaki the Japanese Supreme Council was deadlocked on the issue of surrender. The emperor intervened, declaring that continuing the war would lead to the destruction of the nation. He therefore decided to accept the Allied terms for surrender. Hamas can likewise end the suffering in Gaza by surrendering and returning the hostages. But they will not because they see all Palestinians, including children, as soldiers in the war to eradicate Israel. This is why Hamas does not distinguish between military and civilian deaths. According to Hamas all Palestinians should be martyrs to the cause. Israel is not trying to kill all Palestinians (that would be actual genocide), they are trying to defeat Hamas. Unfortunately in this war Israel's enemy is hiding behind civilians in a high density urban area. The suffering will end when Hamas either surrenders or is defeated.

People who blame Israel for the suffering need to answer this question; what should Israel do about Hamas?
Should Israel simply stop the fighting and allow Hamas to continue their rule of Gaza and wait for the next October 7th?

Should Israel leave Gaza? Remember Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005. Since then Gaza had been an autonomous self-governing region. After 2005 Gaza received billions in foreign aid. Instead of using the money to build a nation, Hamas used the money to build tunnels underneath schools and hospitals, and buy rockets to fire into Israel. They did this because they believe it is their holy mission to destroy Israel, even if they have to sacrifice their own children.

I am not saying Israel is blameless, they are not. Israel has made many mistakes, particularly on the West Bank. I also believe that Netanyahu is more interested in staying out of jail then ending the war. However all the problems come from one source; the refusal of Hamas, and others like them, to accept the existence of a Jewish nation in the middle of the Arab Muslim world. It is that one fundamental attitude that is the source of all problems. Imagine how different history would be if the Arab countries had accepted the 1948 partition.

And constructing a huge concentration camp in Gaza.

Thousands of Gaza residents crossed into Israel everyday for work, earning more than they could in Gaza.
Gaza also borders Egypt. Do you also blame Egypt for this so-called concentration camp?
The fact is the government of Gaza started a war and the people of Gaza are paying for it.

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2025, 05:27 PM - Edit history (1)

This isn't a game. These are two million lives being ended as we speak. Your defense of it is unconscionable. This is what Israel's hatred for Palestinians has resulted in. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220520731

It doesn't exist. What does exist is the Hamas charter that call for the destruction of Israel.

It's to stop the slaughter and starvation.

Your question has a false premise.

Our phones show us the true horror of war. Yesterday’s most horrific image (one of many new ones) showed a 9/10 year old boy still alive lying on the fround screaming with his arms just bombed off.

And tens of thousands of others...

And as many more AS IT TAKES for Israel, the hegemonic superpower in the ME, to feel "secure".

That tells me everything. It makes me sick.

That little boy is likely now dead. If not, that kind of pain without painkillers or surgery can't be borne...

Someone please tell me how Israel and supporters, KNOWING there is nothing near adequate medical help for that boy or all those shot with ARMOUR-piercing bullets at the death traps, KNOWING the excruciating suffering that involves, KNOWING how people die from starvation - how can they still STILL be arguing for why Israel has no choice but to continue.

There can only be one answer. It's very ugly.

Israel still exerted control, though it could claim it had left.

It still controlled Gaxa's airspace, borders and maritime water. It could attack Gaza by air anytime, and it did, at least 5 times, causing thousands of deaths and destruction to its infrastructure and hospitals and homes.

Nothing went in or out of Gaza unless Israel approved it. From birth to death, all was tightly controlled. Even the population registry, birth and death certificates were kept by Israel.

With the blockade, Israel strangled Gaza's economy, farming, fishing, manufacturing. Condemning Gazans to a life of poverty and hopelessness. Dependence. Making life miserable, always with the goal of getting them to go away.

Don't get me started on control of water and electricity. Food even. You can read up.

You covered all the talking points well. I don't have the energy to keep on refuting the rest. You could read non-Israeli sources of information too. Start with the 2017 Hamas Charter. It opened the door to accepting 1967 borders and a truce/peace. Netanyahu ignored it - and kept building settlements and strangling Gaza - as does your narrative.

Even if, in an alternate universe, all or some of your talking points were true - it still would not justify, never, what Israel has done.

People are dying terrible deaths. Your only response to that is feigned indignation that Israel has to "apologize", something nobody asks for at this point, followed by talking points about why the killing and starvation must continue. Do you not see what a bad look that is?

We just want the torment of Palestinians to stop. Israel and Netanyahu can apologize, or at least face accountability for the first time in its/his existence - at The Hague.

And you barely mention it, as though that provocative is an afterthought

They also held tens of thousands of Palestinians in Israel prisons without charges, let alone convictions

Believe that they must starve hundreds of thousands of children to death to "survive" then you are a seriously horrible person.

Is it too much to ask that the Palestinians behave sanely, aren't they human beings?

I'm not talking about Hamas or or anything else.
I said children.
Little kids are wasting away and dying and the only people stopping aid from feeding those dying children is Israel. That isn't my opinion, that is the opinion of international aid agencies and the majority of the international community.
We need to dial back the hate and rhetoric and just allow aid agencies in to feed these poor kids.

N/t

thank you Jon

... I will never forget the beating he gave that financial advisor from CNN or MSNBC. A lot of the stuff from that show on-line was even bloodier.