TIA

Especially knowing US funded it

I’m thankful that most Democratic senators are now on record in voting against military aid to Israel.

list the names of the children and babies that were dismembered? How about all the women that were raped or the ones that had their breasts cut off?

Last edited Sat Aug 2, 2025, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)

All Israeli newspapers listed the ages of kids killed Oct 7.

Grok:
- The Times of Israel reports:
- 2 infants (one being Mila Cohen, the other the unnamed newborn).
- 12 children aged 1–9 (10 boys, 2 girls), including the three siblings and two brothers mentioned above.
- 36 civilians aged 10–19 (25 male, 11 female).
- Haaretz confirms 29 children in total, including the Bibas brothers, and notes 54 children among 885 civilian deaths in terror attacks over the past year, with 809 on October 7.
- Social security data cited by France24 specifies 36 children total, with 20 under 15, including Mila Cohen as the youngest at 10 months.

### Notes:
- Exact names for most children are not provided in the sources, as reports focus on specific cases or aggregate data due to the chaotic nature of the attack and challenges in identifying severely mutilated or burned bodies.

Good

It appears the journalistic component there has more of a conscience than the editorial board

* Hamas

... and intentionally putting people in harm's way for propaganda purposes as a result of their own cowardice are the same group responsible for reporting the numbers. People have died, yes, but these numbers cannot be trusted. Many of their other claims have been proven completely false. Hamas are the legitimate targets in this war. If they want to stop the deaths of innocent people then they should stop hiding among innocent people. Easy. This could end all next week, but clearly Hamas does not want it to end. Are you saying that Hamas cares about innocent lives lost?

The cowards are hiding among innocent civilians, therefore innocent civilians (including children) will be killed because of what Hamas does.

>> 18. I am saying, killing innocent people, children no less, to stop a third party is not OK.
Israel is not "killing children TO stop Hamas" ... that's a misleading way to describe it. Israel is targeting Hamas and only Hamas, they are not "targeting children". But Hamas is INTENTIONALLY putting innocent people in harm's way to protect themselves. And as a "bonus" they get to trot out exaggerated numbers as propaganda for those who are less discerning in facts, and for those who characterize Hamas as "freedom fighters" rather than the terrorist group that they are.

It's a war and people die in wars. It's tragic. But where is the criticism of Hamas? Where is the contempt for how they use innocent people as shields while they hide in/under the schools, apartments, markets, hospitals, etc.

Hamas knows that Israel will not stop until Hamas is defeated. They only hope that the terrorist group has is to create a situation (intentionally) to make Israel look like the "bad guys" and to manipulate those who can be easily manipulated to (weirdly) support the terrorists.

That is a type of passive support in responding the way that Hamas wants people to. Let's put the blame where it belongs... that's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, it is the fault of Hamas that people are hungry. This could end tomorrow, but Hamas won't allow it to.

Implying that people who do not want Gazans to starve support Hamas or don't like Israel or Jewish people, generally, is projection, red herrings, strawmen, ad hominen attacks, and probably a number of other intentionally dishonest fallacies wrapped into one sickening campaign to justify the outright cruelty that has been occurring for months.

While I understand defending Israel and the Jewish people (many of whom do not agree with what is going on), I cannot understand using offensive lies to defend intentionally starving thousands of people.

I will not change your mind and you will not change mine.

Goodbye.

since the start of this barbaric, genocidal ethnic cleansing campaign.

Thank you.

I also have never claimed that innocent people are not dying. They are. Where we part ways is in the reasons WHY they are dying and what the solution is for them to STOP dying. It's a simple solution. As soon as the terrorists are defeated, or as soon as they surrender... the deaths of innocent people will come to an abrupt end.

Everyone keeps calling for Israel to surrender and give up. Why does nobody call for Hamas to give up, or to stop hiding among civilians, or to stop putting their bases of operations in/under/near schools and hospitals and markets?

calling for them to give up the fight against Hamas.

Gazans are currently starving because of Israel is not allowing aid in. Making feeding starving people contingent on what third party terrorists do or do not do is insane.

Hamas has the power to end this.

Israel murdering and starving children certainly puts them in the "bad guys" category.

It's a war. Hamas are the targets. People typically die in wars, sadly. But, Hamas are cowards and criminals when they do this to save themselves (or to try) and they do it to try and manipulate world opinion. It's all propaganda and Hamas is willing to sacrifice innocent people to their own ends. Hamas are the "bad guys".

This could end tomorrow if Hamas wanted it. But they don't want it. They do not care.

Sadly, innocent people die and go hungry during war. This is a war. It's tragic. The ball in in the court of Hamas. What will they do? How will they protect and serve the innocent people? The choice is theirs to make.

The IDF are "serving the people" by shooting them, starving them, and destroying their property?

Is this the "We had to burn down the village to save ti" version of excusing war crimes?

The IDF are not there to "serve the people" they are there to fight a war. Hamas is the target. Hamas hides among civilians and puts civilians in harm's way.

Put the blame where it belongs: squarely in the lap of Hamas.

Their tactic of hiding among civilians and placing their HQ's and operations in/under hospitals, markets, schools, etc is the war crime. It's also an effective propaganda tool... especially when Hamas controls the "health ministry" and approves (dictates) what the numbers of casualties should be. That data cannot be trusted... but less discerning people are falling for it.

>> Is this the "We had to burn down the village to save ti" version of excusing war crimes?
That's an odd question. The war crimes we're seeing are from Hamas using civilians as human shields.

In reality, what you're seeing is the "... we had to sacrifice our own women and children because we are cowards and we need some propaganda deaths to help turn the world against Israel" version of war crimes.

Even Israelis are protesting the war because of them.

"Burn down the village" is from another series of war crimes committed by the USA in Vietnam. The Americans finally realized what was going on and bailed out.

Worst aim out of any modern military. Of course the IDF soldiers that say they are targeting civilians are of course liars right?

It's ugly. Imprecise. People die. Hamas makes certain that innocent people die and they do so quite successfully, don't they?

No wonder its so much worse than what I thought. Can you enlighten me on if water is wet? Inquiring and supposedly stupid people like me want to know. I do have another question and an important one, I will forgive that you failed to address the IDF soldiers saying they were targeting civilians because of your amazing clarification that in war people die, I'm sure you decided that I needed to know that fact as I obviously was ignorant of it, what is Israels NCV used in Gaza and what are modern western nations NCV? I do have one little tid bit that may sound crazy to some but big ol evil Russia has killed 13,580 civilian since February 24, 2022 in Ukraine while according to Bibi half of the 60,000 dead in Gaza are civilians. Lets see, 60,000 divided by 2 = using my fingers and toes, gonna take me a moment, about 30,000 dead civilians in Gaza. Wow, that's over double the amount Russia killed. When did Israel attack Gaza, wasnt that in November of 2023?
So,
In less than 2 years Israel has killed 30,000 civilians.
In over 3 years Russia has killed 13,580 civilians.
Of course you cant compare the two can you? One is fought in open country and the other in a city? Of course there would be more "collateral" deaths.
One of these is Gaza and one is Ukraine. Which is which


Population of Ukraine 45 million.
Population of Gaza 2.1 million.
If only there was some more information that could help us.

The bombing of Gaza has also been much more severe than the most intense periods of the US-led air campaign in Mosul in Iraq in 2016, when roughly 600 munitions were dropped in a week, while the tonnage of explosives expended during the first week of bombardment is higher than one year’s use by the USA in Afghanistan.

Whilst the number of targets struck is consistent with IAF updates, the estimate for the tonnage of bombs would mean an average of more than 2 tonnes of bombs per target which is higher than estimates based on a range of other sources. EHRM makes a comparison with the power of the Hiroshima nuclear bomb (equivalent to about 15,000 tonnes of TNT) and suggests that by this date Gaza had been bombarded with the equivalent of two nuclear weapons over an area of 360 square km

Save the insults and sarcasm. As a rhetorical gimmick is reveals a position of weakness. Instead... Put the blame where it belongs... on Hamas. Hamas has the power to end this today. But they do not, why?

You'll have to ask Israel. 🙄🥱

I only ask this since you decided to lecture me on what war is so obviously you know right?

Seriously, you acted like I thought war was a nerf fight. Too funny.
So, Bu Bye.

I blame both. You?

I do not support terrorists. I do not blame the victims or the targets of terrorism. It's a war. People will continue to die. It will end when Hamas is defeated or when they "surrender".

Really?

Because of thousands dying under the rubble.

Weird.

Hamas knows that they are legitimate targets in this war... yet they intentionally put civilians in harm's way. They hide and conduct their operations in / around / under hospitals, markets, schools, apartments... which puts all those places in danger. They know this, yet they continue. They do nothing for the civilians except cause more death and destructions.

Where's the outrage?

If the IDF and Bibi want to stop being called War Criminals and murderers? Stop murdering and being War criminals.

Blaming the victims is as old as Cain blaming Abel.

But you knew that.

You knew that. Hamas is using innocent people as shields. It won't work. Hamas has sealed their fates. Blame Hamas.

It's like calling humans "collateral damage" when counting the bodies.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Yet no posts about that. That is... interesting. There actually is a right side, and it's not siding with the Hamas terrorists.

I haven't seen anyone on DU siding with Hamas. Have you?

... by intentionally putting them in harms way as human shields. The war will continue until Hamas are destroyed. They know this so they continue to sacrifice innocent people to save their own cowardly lives and for propaganda purposes. These are the simple facts.

I think when someone refers to Hamas as "freedom fighters" that is not really an indictment of the type of organization they are, is it? Personally, I do not support Hamas, nor do I think that they should be rewarded or given reprieve for their war crimes. They must be destroyed and defeated.

But they do not want to (apparently). Why? They know they cannot "win" this war, so why do they continue? Why are they hiding among innocent civilians? Reasonable people understand that they want to intentionally put innocent people in harm's way for propaganda purposes and use those deaths to sway public opinion in favor of the terrorist organization. Amazing how many people fall for it, but I'm not one of them.

Hamas will be destroyed. They will not win. Hamas will decide how many innocent people die in the process. It's always been their choice.

Innocent people.

If the soldiers know that they are innocent why are they killing them? To what purpose? The end justifies the means? Or is it just vengeance?

It doesn't make a damned bit of difference who wins the war if you're dead. Yossarian from Catch-22.

Well, as you know (but seem to frequently forget, or ignore) the objective is to defeat Hamas. Hamas will be defeated. Hamas will decide how many innocent people die. When Hamas intentionally puts innocent people in harm's way, it can certainly deceive people into believing that their deaths are motivated by an imaginary "vengeance" but the reality is that it's the result of the cowardice of Hamas.

I think it would make more sense to criticize and rally the world against Hamas. That makes more sense, doesn't it? In the minds and opinions of many, the obsessive focus on Israel and blaming only Israel has the unfortunate appearance of supporting Hamas. Weird, huh?

>> Well, at least you admit that they're innocent.
Admit? Weird word to use... when have I ever "denied" that they were innocent? (Answer: never.) I'm sorry to let you know that I cannot take seriously anyone who tries to play "clever" word-games by implying things that are completely false. This has become a waste of my time. Feel free to continue this conversation alone. I'm done with you. Goodbye.

Hamas was elected in 2006 -

“Hamas was elected in the Palestinian legislative elections on January 25, 2006, winning a plurality of 44% of the vote and 74 out of 132 seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council.[](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-election-hamas-2006-palestine-israel/)[](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html)[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election)

At that time, Gaza's population was notably young, with a median age of around 18. Approximately 47.3% of the population was under 18 years old, meaning most children in Gaza were either not yet born or were very young (under 12 years old) during the 2006 election. Specifically, around 43.5% of the population was 14 or younger in 2013, suggesting that in 2006, a significant portion of Gaza's children were infants, toddlers, or pre-teens, with many born after the election.[](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians)[](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/)

Given that the voting age in Gaza was 18, the vast majority of Gaza’s current population (with estimates suggesting 50% are 18 or younger as of 2025) were either not born or too young to vote in 2006.

Because that number doesn't count the many who were buried alive under the rubble and died agonizing deaths.

Can you imagine what kind of monsters would go build homes and live over the graves of martyrs?

Any judgements of morality are directly related to international law that describes this war crime.

Hamas is bad, terrible, evil, etc. is not an effective argument in relation to the starvation crisis in Gaza. We know. Hamas is bad. Hamas does terrible and illegal things. We know. We agree. EVERYONE agrees and NEVER argues to the contrary.

Now, what is going to be done about the thousands of people starving in Gaza?

"Everyone agrees Hamas is bad". That ends the conversation, doesn't it?

Ok, let me try this out: Israel is bad. Now, what is going to be done about the thousands of peoplekilled being used as human shields by the terrorist regime in Gaza?

DU is full of posts calling Israel to be accountable for every death in Gaza. Did you see a single post calling Hamas to be accountable for all the thousands of deaths it caused? If you can find more than a handful such posts in the last twenty months, I will concede you have a point. Otherwise, "Hamas is bad" is just a ploy to sweep their atrocities under the rug.

to influence the actions of Hamas to comply with international law and basic standards of human decency.

But nobody supports Hamas, so we cannot do anything about their behavior. We can do something about the behavior on our side of the table. We need to ensure that appropriate nutritional support is being distributed to Gazans and otherwise that our side of the table is acting humanely.

You concede that the best way you can think of to hold Hamas accountable for thousands of Gazan civilian deaths is to sweep it all under the rug.

Moreover, you are now suggesting that your views on morality are contingent on whether or not the subject of these moral judgements gets our aid or not. At least, what you are saying explicitly is that you reserve your moral judgement only to those we can influence with how we use that support. As if there are no means of influence, and no other means to hold terrorists accountable for their atrocities.

That's a pretty peculiar morality standard. It suggests that we can do nothing about Iran or Russia or China because we don't support them and cannot leverage that support to influence them. And it therefore prevents us from even mentioning the overwhelming evidence, not even a small part of it, of the war crimes they commit.

And that's your rationale for sweeping any criticism of Hamas under the rug and giving them a free pass. Not very convincing.

We are discussing children starving in Gaza, right now as we speak, and what we can do about it. We are talking about our ability to influence the illegal actions of Hamas versus our ability to influence the actions of Israel, the party who can offer the immediate nutritional aid that is needed.

You are rambling on about countries that we trade with and have a host of other options and issues with. To extrapolate conclusions related to one situation and apply them to totally different situations with many differing variables, is ridiculous. The USA's relationship with China and Russia obviously does not compare to the USA's relationship with Hamas in almost any way, whatsoever.

You do not appear to want to engage in good faith on solving the emergency issue of thousands of innocent people starving, right now, as we speak. Which we have the power to influence the outcome of, right now. Which starts with acknowledging the reality of the situation, right now. Which you refuse to do in good faith. You want to talk about ANYTHING else to the point of literally talking nonsense.

and I quote: "killing a group of innocent people as a tool to induce a third party to act in a desired manner" being immoral.

But even that discussion ended as soon as you made your conception of morality contingent on US military aid. According to you, and I quote: "But nobody supports Hamas, so we cannot do anything about their behavior".

Just because you can influence someone's behavior to the exclusion of all others, doesn't mean you are addressing that behavior in good faith. In fact, this approach doesn't make this behavior disappear, it delegates the said behavior exclusively to the party you claim you cannot control. Mentioning Iran, Russia amd China is not an extrapolation, it is an analogy that underscores the absurdity of your argument. It's not a "versus" thing, even if we are now switching to discussing children starving in Gaza.

Hamas is not starving. Hamas doesn't care about starving Gazans. There are only two reasons for the children being starved: Hamas holding hostages and Hamas controlling Gaza. Release the hostages, disarm Hamas, and there is no longer the need to influence Israel. End military aid to Israel, and nothing will change.

Consider these simple truths in search of your solutions.

This conversation has always had the context of the current starvation crisis. None of these comments were made in a vacuum. They are not independent propositions that can be applied to any situation. We are not "now" switching the topic to the crisis in Gaza.

Of course, speaking generally, the US can and does do things to thwart terrorists activities, generally. That is obvious to any and every person.

In the context of the starvation crisis in Gaza (again, what this thread has ALWAYS been about), the US has immediate influence over Israel allowing in immediately available and desperately needed aid, while the US cannot direct immediate influence over Hamas's illegal behavior.

And so, making the allowance of immediately urgent aid into Gaza contingent on the behavior of terrorists that we cannot immediately control, is immoral.

what does the phrase "Killing a group of innocent people as a tool to induce a third party to act in a desired manner is immoral." mean?

Who is the group of innocent people? Who is killing them? Who is the third party to be induced to act in the desired manner? What is the desired manner?

Everything you said since then, in the context of the current starvation crisis or otherwise, leads me to believe that you meant the following: Israel is doing the killing. A group of innocent people are Gazan civilians and/or gazan children.The third party is Hamas. Desired manner is releasing the hostages. You called this immoral.

Tell me you meant something else. If you did, tell me what you meant in the context of of the current starvation crisis.

In whatever context you intended your posts to be, I challenged your presuppositions. Let me be clear how: Inducing the release of the hostages is the most moral thing one can do. Israel is inducing the release of the hostages by killing the immoral people who took the hostages., Hamas, the immoral third party, place Gazan civilians, the innocent people, in the path of lethal force, a tool intended for Hamas, the immoral third party. In the letter and the spirit of international law, it is Hamas who is culpable of killing innocent Gazans.

Rather than address any of it, you stated that Hamas, the culpable third party, cannot be prevented from acting immorally because the US has no control over it. You further stated that since the US has control of Israel, it is Israel alone that should be judged by your morality standards.

This is the extent of your posts and my replies. If your statements were made in the context of the current starvation crisis, how are my direct replies to them are not?

You said, "Inducing the release of the hostages is the most moral thing one can do."
Inducing the release of hostages by starving thousands of people who do not have the hostages and cannot make them be released, is extremely immoral.

You said, "Israel is inducing the release of the hostages by killing the immoral people who took the hostages."
Israel is starving thousands of people who did NOT take the hostages and cannot make Hamas return them, which is extremely immoral.
We agree that Israel killing Hamas is moral.

You said, "Hamas, the immoral third party, place Gazan civilians, the innocent people, in the path of lethal force, a tool intended for Hamas, the immoral third party. "
We agree that Hamas has done this numerous times and are an extremely immoral third party. Vile terrorists.

You said, "In the letter and the spirit of international law, it is Hamas who is culpable of killing innocent Gazans."
We agree, Hamas is certainly culpable for killing innocent Gazans and Israelis. And Israel is responsible for the thousands of innocent people it is intentionally killing too.

I only added my interpretation of what you said, which, it seems, turned out to be correct.

Now, you finally agree that Hamas plays a significant role in inflicting casualties on the Gazan civilians. Something that is so rarely acknowledged that you couldn't find a single instance of it being mentioned on DU.

You continue to associate the starving of thousands of people with Israel's attempt to release hostages. This is ridiculous. Hamas will hold hostages regardless of how many Gazans starve. They have been "martyring" civilians for nearly two years, with no concern whatsoever about how many people die. In fact, their leaders are on record welcoming civilian deaths, the more the better. Whether they starve or get killed doesn't matter to them at all. Israel is fully aware that starving civilians will not induce Hamas to release a single hostage, ever. There is no connection between one and the other. It's time you realize it too.

It will take a far more nuanced approach, in terms of both morality and legality, to determine Israel's, and Hamas', role in the starvation of Gazan civilians. There are far more variables involved in this than you are willing to consider.

But let me bring your attention to how this subthread illustrates my point: you only acknowledged, reluctantly, under pressure to do so, that Hamas has a significant, if not a crucial role in the suffering of Gazan civilians. None of your comments about Hamas were made without being prompted. none of your comments about Hamas were made without an obligatory mention of Israel. The bulk of your criticism of Israel was made without ever mentioning Hamas. In fact, you made it a point to not mention Hamas: "Repeatedly stating that Hamas is bad, terrible, evil, etc. is not an effective argument in relation to the starvation crisis in Gaza."

Yet you had no problem repeatedly stating that Israel is bad, terrible, etc.

Alternatively, it is far easier to question my connection with reality (in violation of the DU terms of use, BTW) than come up with compelling arguments.

If something is universally acknowledged, surely you can find hints of this acknowledgement on DU, no? If, on the other hand, you choose to decline my challenge to illustrate how universal this acknowledgement is, your claim loses credibility. Which is exactly my point. Your statement lacks credibility.

I am not sure you read my previous post in its entirety: it included the answer to your question, THEN WHY IS ISRAEL STARVING GAZANS??!!! , sans the gratuitous punctuation marks. For your benefit, here it is again:

We have all seen the images of naked blindfolded men being tortured
on our phones. This includes young boys too.

many of whom were innocent. SOME were even peace activists, who were ON THE SIDE OF THE PALISTINIANS. HAMAS hates Palestinians as much as the worst actual Israeli genocider, that is clear.

Hamas crimes don't make Israel's acts okay. But it would be nice to see RECOGNITION that this all started with the HAMAS EVIL of 10/7 and that Palestinians have not turned over those criminals to justice. Maybe they can't. But I bet some could do more than they have.

When "Israeli genocide" is mentioned, also mention "HAMAS EVIL" (just as loudly) and perhaps it would be easier to have a conversation between the two sides.

The Genocide Exception.

Because, as we all know, international laws of war and humanitarian laws state that it is permissible to kill human shields.

Please note:

is a war crime. International laws state that those using human shields are the war criminals.

Honest, no sarcasm smilies. Just take some time to look it up. And make a note of it for future references when you are compelled to comment on human shields.

In a just world, we'd be showing that psychopath what we used to do to terrorists. But our world is not just right now.

Or something…

by the callous, heartless, stubborn disregard for human life displayed on this thread.

Sometimes it's best to use the Ignore function than to continue to expose yourself to those comments.