that our elections are a binary choice. Anything else is just dumb. That is not the way our system works.

At this point I'm convinced she is a Russian spy given what she did to the election.

counting her rubes and rubles.

She’s not accepting rubles. It’s not exactly easy to convert in the US and it’s $1 to 80 rubles.

Bitcoin would be smarter

The result is the same.

Pootie uses stupid people like her, and Tulsi Gabbard, and Chump ... and so many more weak, greedy Americans.
The money from Pootie means more to them than honor or integrity, they've all sold out their country.

Does this mean Putin is the Devil? Well in a way, yes he is. He knows what it takes to get the job done.
He knows exactly how to get these weak low-intelligence people to sell their souls.

Benny Johnson is just the unlucky one to have got caught - I wonder how many more are out there?

... he's probably the richest man in the world. What good is all that wealth if can't get what he wants. What he really wants is to completely fuck up the USA. Chump is happy to oblige. Pootie has more invested here in our Repukes than anywhere else in the world.

There are so many who are happy to take money from Putin. Michael Flynn, Tulsi Gabbard, Mitch McConnell, (probably) Ted Cruz, Jill Stein ... the list goes on and on. What is wrong with ALL of them?

But yeah only in the Trump admin can you fail upward.

"He knows exactly how to get these weak low-intelligence people to sell their souls."

I heard this on Thom Hartmann's show or maybe elsewhere: there's a reason putin chose to infiltrate the US starting via the gun cult (anyone remember Maria Butina?) and (fake) xtian fundamentalists. Both groups are extremists with little to no critical thinking skills, used to mindlessly going along with whatever bullsh*t their cult leaders dish out. Pre-primed for authoritarianism!

She still disagrees with both parties but I’m glad she is horrified by what’s happening to the Palestinians. I checked her X posts - mostly reposting about genocide.

Last I checked, that was ZERO.

I don’t think any combatant will surrender if they know they will be tortured.

“ UN report: Palestinian detainees held arbitrarily and secretly, subjected to torture and mistreatment”

The testimonies gathered by my Office and other entities indicate a range of appalling acts, such as waterboarding and the release of dogs on detainees, amongst other acts, in flagrant violation of international human rights law and international humanitarian law,” he said.“

“Detainees said they were held in cage-like facilities, stripped naked for prolonged periods, wearing only diapers. Their testimonies told of prolonged blindfolding, deprivation of food, sleep and water, and being subjected to electric shocks and being burnt with cigarettes. Some detainees said dogs were released on them, and others said they were subjected to waterboarding, or that their hands were tied and they were suspended from the ceiling. Some women and men also spoke of sexual and gender-based violence.”

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-

The New York Times reports Israeli military is torturing people by impaling them with hot metal rods in their rectums and tying them to electric chairs. This information is buried at the end of a single article where these details are unmentioned in the headline or subheadline.

Link to tweet

Hamas would rather keep torturing Israeli hostages in tunnels, and goading Israel to keep fighting.

She caused it

Some of whom were posters here at the time

Link to tweet

Where is she?

Then they got enough fools to play along.

With trump back in power, Bibi will be free to do what he wants in Gaza

Link to tweet

Trump lied and throughout his campaign he said he would bring peace to Middle East.

Everyday we see injured and dead kids on our phones and I hope the Dems address this more in the midterms so we get seats back.

We just saw how after giving a pro Palestine speach this week , Wesley Bell, supported by AIPAC, was screamed at by his constituents - and his security shoved and injured constituents. Being pro Israel is not going over well.

Kamala DID speak about wanting a peaceful solution, many times. What she didn't do was focus solely on that issue. And for those who saw the election only through one issue--Gaza--that was unforgivable, so they sat out the election and hurt everyone (and themselves).

Deciding to vote on a single issue is never a winning strategy, especially when the stakes are so high.

Remarkable what some people can get away with here
😡😡😡😡😡

But I am glad you are challenging that nonsense.

Oh God and now there is another one here, that I just read. I’m getting out of here for a while, if I wanted to be surrounded by maga I’d go somewhere else.

They sealed their fate.

During the run up to the election, they do their rally speech, over and over again. Hell, the audience is trained on what to chant. I watch one and figure I've pretty much watched them all.

But what if we didn't do that? Give the rally speech here and there to keep the big picture in sight. Instead of doing it all the time though, what about taking a deep dive into some policy piece or another every once in a while? Do you think they could answer back? I think it might throw them off their game and could even push them into a defensive position.

OK, back to your regularly programmed thread.

only work on fans of The Trump Show or the extremely gullible.

Yes, Kamala did talk about a peaceful solution, constantly talked about the "opportunity economy" and how important a strong middle class is, kitchen table things. Yet we're gaslighted with lies she didn't have a message of peace or the economy. I've seen a few times the claim that Democrats have to be "happy warriors" and seem completely unaware that Kamala was called a happy warrior or joyful warrior.

As always, Democrats are accused of not doing what they do and of doing what they have not (right-wing technique of making sure government doesn't work then blaming Democrats for not being able to accomplish anything, used to bash presidents Clinton and Obama when Republicans who controlled the House six out of eight years during their terms made clear their goal was to make those administrations fail -- trolls love accusing Clinton and Obama of making the Democratic Party lurch to the right because of Wall Street or whatever story they make up).

And of course the yelling revolution's childish ideology that there are fast & easy solutions to all problems (that they pretend both sides caused) but Democrats won't do them because they're corrupt, because of money.

Posing as americans on this site.

Putin has something on every weak, greedy, low-intelligence leader of the Western World. Does the include Bibi?
I don't know, but it sure looks like it. I don't have any insider info ... but WTF?

Maybe they're BOTH just really, really good at hacking each other's intelligence networks. (And we're not.)

They've all been reported to have had talks with Putin. Along with leaders in Iran, Syria, the Saudis...
It's about capitalizing on chaos. They don't care if innocents get killed, they don't care if infrastructure is gutted, and I really doubt they care that much about religion, so long as they can manipulate it - they all just want money and power.

or people whose origins traced back to the Middle East in general, I said THEN and NOW, that they could be understood and forgiven for their stance even if it was, in my view, erroneous. They were too closely affected by the events to think straight and I could empathize with their frustration with Biden and his administration. After all I myself felt that by far the worst thing Biden did in his four years was his handling of the Gaza situation. He handed Netanyahu a gift with his lukewarm warnings while simultaneously handing over to Israel all the weapons it wanted. Plus it had been reported that members of Biden’s staff had to push him to remember and reach out to the Palestinian American community, after going out of his way to do all he could to comfort Jewish Americans. It was tone deaf and inexcusable.Because of it I was concerned that Arabic Americans would turn away from Biden and that many of them would be led by emotions by voting for Trump. What I urged us non-Arabic American voters to do was pick up the slack by showing up in force to vote the Democratic ticket anyway. But showing up in force is not what we did and most of those absences had nothing to do with the conflict in Israel.

And now all I see and hear from a bunch of Democrats and progressive pundits (Stephanie Miller, Hal Sparks) blaming EVERYTHING on those who did their whole “protest vote” regarding those events. There is not evidence that confirms that caused Kamala from achieving victory. Also it’s damn insensitive to keep going down that road in such petty factions when countless Palestinians have been dying the past couple of years. Many of you are more enraged over that protest against Biden than you are over the slaughter of innocent Palestinians since 2023. Go do some soul searching.

Rather than problem ignoring.
Which makes us easy targets for mono-issue promoters.
People are extremely complex and the World is filled with Innocents and Villains - but most of all, human beings with autonomy -the ability to make a difference - who have a range of both within them.
Normal People - who are so choked with rage or despair over a situation they are in, they feel they have little choice. People who rise above, and people who become animals, because they choose based on the emotions of the situation. Or people who just want to live in peace, but are forced to fight or have everything taken from them.
The real villains are the ones who lie and blaspheme their way into positions of power, then watch from afar and count the money they are making off other people's pain.

Well I felt too many things were being conflated.
Neither I nor anyone I know (people who are sympathetic to the Jewish community and aghast at the ravages to Palestine-why is that such a hard position? Sympathy for humans on both sides?) backed the protest vote or failed to see the Oct 7 attack as horrifying.

But some of it seemed a little hard hearted towards the Palestinian people. Like not having a speaker at the DNC.

It’s all so predictably awful if you zoom out-it will devastate Gaza and be used to scapegoat Jewish people and stoke antisemitism. It’s such a victory for any actual antisemites.
As someone with friendly feelings towards the Jewish community (I mostly identify as an environmentalist and as with most leftist causes Jewish people are disproportionately represented among greens/animal rights supporters and this war stresses people whose primary causes are not human-centric).

A whole population of Palestinians will be wiped out of existence and it will be used to scapegoat Jewish people and give liberal Jewish people PTSD therefore helping the cynical, mercenary far right everywhere.

Humans..very logical species..it’s hard for people close to it to overcome passions, but I do disapprove of these divisions being stoked rather than healed by more neutral people who let their biases (and I see it on the farther left which I follow, and can be as unsympathetic to Jewish people).
A very successful exercise in divide and rule.

So are Arab Americans.

People aren't stupid. Trump cozied up to Netanyahu.

Why aren't they protesting in the streets?

Oh??????

No cute nickname for Trump, they don't care.

Thank you.

The last paragraph!!

We don't have very many Palestinians in the country. Most of the Arabs in Michigan are Lebanese and they seemed to lead the charge.
Arab countries have always resented Israel.

Lebanon really hates having Palestinians in their country and treat them like shit. (Because they're Sunni)
Hence they hate Israel and want Palestinians out.

no matter WHAT, there is NO VALID EXCUSE for helping Trump become "president" again.

N O N E

THEY are the ones who need to do some SOUL SEARCHING

they didn't really give a shit about anyone else before or since.

...I wonder which Democrat's office the Gaza protestors are protesting in right now?



Fucking idiots.

while never acknowledging that the Democrats are in the minority because they put them there. The way to keep Trump out was to not let him in. That’s political reality, but they refuse to see that they are pawns for Trump.

He died of cancer shortly afterward and never saw the consequences of his vote. I wonder if he's watching now from the hereafter.

I cant believe some of them didn't vote for us when we just sidelined them in the convention while platforming the injustice on the other side. As if the injustice they were experiencing was not worth presenting. Ungrateful fools. Its not like their families were in any danger and getting killed. I agree with you, you were right and I was wrong.

We would have won for sure!

Their speech they had for the DNC is widely available and does nothing of the sort. Just in case you haven't seen it I will share it with you here.

My name is Ruwa Romman, and I’m honored to be the first Palestinian elected to public office in the great state of Georgia and the first Palestinian to ever speak at the Democratic National Convention. My story begins in a small village near Jerusalem, called Suba, where my dad’s family is from. My mom’s roots trace back to Al Khalil, or Hebron. My parents, born in Jordan, brought us to Georgia when I was eight, where I now live with my wonderful husband and our sweet pets.


Growing up, my grandfather and I shared a special bond. He was my partner in mischief—whether it was sneaking me sweets from the bodega or slipping a $20 into my pocket with that familiar wink and smile. He was my rock, but he passed away a few years ago, never seeing Suba or any part of Palestine again. Not a day goes by that I don’t miss him.

This past year has been especially hard. As we’ve been moral witnesses to the massacres in Gaza, I’ve thought of him, wondering if this was the pain he knew too well. When we watched Palestinians displaced from one end of the Gaza Strip to the other I wanted to ask him how he found the strength to walk all those miles decades ago and leave everything behind.

But in this pain, I’ve also witnessed something profound—a beautiful, multifaith, multiracial, and multigenerational coalition rising from despair within our Democratic Party. For 320 days, we’ve stood together, demanding to enforce our laws on friend and foe alike to reach a ceasefire, end the killing of Palestinians, free all the Israeli and Palestinian hostages, and to begin the difficult work of building a path to collective peace and safety. That’s why we are here—members of this Democratic Party committed to equal rights and dignity for all. What we do here echoes around the world.

They’ll say this is how it’s always been, that nothing can change. But remember Fannie Lou Hamer—shunned for her courage, yet she paved the way for an integrated Democratic Party. Her legacy lives on, and it’s her example we follow.

But we can’t do it alone. This historic moment is full of promise, but only if we stand together. Our party’s greatest strength has always been our ability to unite. Some see that as a weakness, but it’s time we flex that strength.

Let’s commit to each other, to electing Vice President Harris and defeating Donald Trump who uses my identity as a Palestinian as a slur. Let’s fight for the policies long overdue—from restoring access to abortions to ensuring a living wage, to demanding an end to reckless war and a ceasefire in Gaza. To those who doubt us, to the cynics and the naysayers, I say, yes we can—yes we can be a Democratic Party that prioritizes funding our schools and hospitals, not for endless wars. That fights for an America that belongs to all of us—Black, brown, and white, Jews and Palestinians, all of us, like my grandfather taught me, together

They sabotaged Dems.

In that one speceech you link to, it talks about Gaza "massacres" and a "coalition rising from despair within our Democratic Party" that is fighting "for the policies long overdue—from restoring access to abortions to ensuring a living wage, to demanding an end to reckless war and a ceasefire in Gaza." As if Biden and Harris were not trying to get a ceasefire in Gaza and end the war. They in essence blamed Biden for inaction, at best, and complicity at worst, to what they described as a "genocide." And it could not have been further from the truth.

And you are against restoring access to abortions ,ensuring a living wage, demanding an end to reckless war and a ceasefire in Gaza. Really? And if saying that you are against those things is a blame against the previous Democratic administration in you opinion then what are you for? They were only saying that is what they and us should be for. Jeeze.

By saying such efforts were "long overdue," they were saying Biden had not made such efforts. Which is a total lie.

Their families. Their friends. What was it? Like 80% of the deaths are civilian? What did we do? Did we stop the offensive arms to them for this? What did we do? Did we sanction them? Did we cut off diplomatic relations with them? What did we do?

Biden emphasized sale of defensive weapons to Israel, and limited offensive weapons sold to Israel, including ending sale of bunker buster bombs to Israel. Those have now resumed under Trump. Indeed, Trump used them in Iran on Israel's behalf this June.

We convinced Israel to provide more food and safe zones. Israel complied for the most part, until Harris lost the election. Now Trump just tells Israel to "get it over with."

It helps to sleep through the night...

The sale includes medium-range air-to-air missiles to help Israel defend against airborne threats, 155 mm projectile artillery shells for long-range targeting, Hellfire AGM-114 missiles, 500-pound bombs and more.
The United States paused a shipment of 2,000-pound bombs to Israel in May over concerns about civilian casualties if the bombs were to be used during an assault on the southern Gaza city of Rafah. The Biden administration has demanded that Israel increase humanitarian aid into the enclave. But in November, citing some limited progress, it declined to limit arms transfers as it threatened to do if the situation did not improve.

who were directly affected in Gaza.

A-hole. Lol.

I always voted for Bernie in the primaries, but I'm
pragmatic enough to always vote against any Republican
on any ballot, so I could hold my nose and vote Dem
when I had to.

I am a died in the wool, very liberal, yellowdawg
Democrat; and I want candidates who share my views.
We actually used to have those for awhile till Reagan
came along.

I want them back, but I will still never vote republican.

They were toxic 30 years ago and they are extremely toxic now. What sane, not possessed by greed and selfish person would vote for a Republican?

Deserves an OP.
Right on every point.

"to the right-wing extremist Netanyahu
government in Israel and I know that
many of you share those feelings and
some of you are saying how can I vote
for KLA Harris if she is supporting this
terrible war and that is a very fair
question and let me give you my best
answer and that is that even on this
issue Donald Trump and his right-wing friends
are worse in the senate in Congress the
Republicans have worked overtime to
block humanitarian Aid to The Starving
Children in Gaza the President and Vice
President both support getting as much
humanitarian Aid into Gaza as soon as
possible Trump has said Netanyahu is
doing a good job and as said Biden is
holding him back he has to suggested
that the Gaza Strip would make excellent
beachfront property for development and
it is no wonder Netanyahu prefers to
have Donald Trump in office but even
more importantly and this I promise you
after kamla WIS we will together do
everything that we can to change US
policy toward Netanyahu an immediate
ceasefire the return of all hostages a
surge of massive humanitarian Aid the
stopping of settler attacks on the West
Bank and the rebuilding of Gaza for the
Palestinian people and let me be clear
we will have in my view a much better
chance of changing US policy with kamla
than with Trump who is extremely close
to Netanyahu ..."

I recall her saying the suffering in Gaza was unconscionable etc. And I also recall her saying close to the election that "we will never stop arming Israel, supporting Israel" or some such. And inviting RITCHIE TORRES and Liz CHENEY of all people to campaign with her. At that point I despaired, I recall that too.

How Biden and then Harris had to shoulder the blame for Gaza is beyond me. Trump obviously was going to make it worse.

A hundred thousand maimed and injured.

People. Actual people. Most of them women and children.

Straw men, you think?

Biden was not to blame for Gaza. Without him (or Harris) it got far worse.

I'm sure at heart you know that too.

Biden is responsible for what happened under his watch.

attack Democrats. During Obama's term it was innocent dead children killed by Obama drones, NATO anti-terrorism missions lied about as unilateral American imperialism, Obama plotting WWIII, Obama death lists, Obama surveillance of American citizens. Day after Trump won, never ever ever did we hear about drones or special forces or surveillance. Obvious.

The stupidity of claiming Biden or Harris is responsible for a war in another country but gotta spread the propaganda!

All we Michiganders can do now is work for the blue in 26 and 28

They seem to feel like Americans had to pay for whatever is happening in Gaza. Netanyahu and Putin played them like a tune.

I feel absolutely certain that the majority of folks who pretended to be on that bandwagon were actually just taking a socially acceptable reason not to vote for a woman.

And so they probably feel a lil bad about Palestine, but not really because that was never what was actually important to them, and anyway they can justify themselves that it was going to be the same no matter who was running the USA. And internally they feel good because they dont have to suffer under a female leader who points out their own inadequacy just by existing, but instead are enjoying pointing out what a shitheel trump is and getting the "Street cred", if mainly imagined in their own heads, for being against/better than a guy like trump.

But thats just a guess.

But they're still bashing Dems - blaming Kamala for not talking about peace enough, or blaming the DNC for not letting Pro-Palestinian activists speak at our convention.

Most young Americans get their info from social media. The last few weeks before the election- Trump went on many podcasts playing like he was just your normal everyday guy.

Many on here won’t go on X because it’s owned by Elon who is a jerk - BUT -over 100 million Americans are on X ( mostly young people under 45). X used to be 3/4 Demcratic and now it’s only 52%.
Do we want all these young Americans to be only influenced by Republicans????

Cable news shows have an audience between 500 thousand and two million. Podcasts have audiences up to 50 million or more of some interviews.
Tucker had 2 million viewers on Fox but some of his shows get 40 million or more as podcasts.

The times are different and some reports say interviews on social media had more impact than rallies.

How do the people that didn't support Stevenson feel.

I guess we have a few 89 plus year olds here on DU. I guess they could chime in!

"Let's not vote for Stevenson because he's milquetoast?"

Is that why he didn't win?

Did anyone vote Green (hee-hee)? Were they upset over loss of life in the Korean War?
Did the Korean War even start under Truman? (Hell my dad was B29 pilot during the thing. I should know the years, but I don't)

Were there protests?

I know: They voted Green because of atomic bomb tests!!!

Did Strom Thurmond pull something with Dixiecrats?

Was Jill Stein's mom a presidential candidate? Were her parents even 35 back then?

This is mostly sarcasm btw

Remember Nader voters? They never seem to learn, but we have to keep trying.

On Gaza and failing to shift from 401K economy to paycheck economy now?

There is plenty of blame to go around, so stop blaming it exclusively on people who were very clear about what was important to them, and our response was don't believe your lying eyes, or now it's not the time.

When people who were living paycheck to paycheck couldn't make ends meet, and our response was you're wrong, the economy is great.

It's not a right wing talking point - it is one of the drivers for the low voter turnout in urban, traditionally blue, areas. We ignore it at our own peril.

What a crock of right wing bullshit. She NEVER told any voter "you're wrong, the economy is great." Good God, what kind of hatred do you have for her to believe that? Holy shit.

She was the only one talking about programs that would actually help the working class and middle class. She spoke about expanding the ACA, bringing down the costs of housing and helping people buy their first home with $25k from the government to go toward their down payment. She talked about paid childcare and parental leave, and student loan forgiveness. Trump sure as fuck didn't talk about any of that!

Go back and listen to/read things she actually said - especially before she tried, too late, to pivot and address the concerns of the voters who stayed home. Read analysis of the election, especially analysis which focuses on voters who stayed home, and why.

I din't hate her at all. I just refuse to look at any candidate through rose colored glasses or to heap blame on voters who were so discouraged that they didn't bother to turn out to vote.

If we don't examine what went wrong, we will repeat our mistakes in 2026, and in 2028, and fail then, as well.

What you are accusing her of saying is absolutely false. Basing your analysis on false claims of what Harris said will not help you determine "what went wrong."

Repeating false right wing talking points about Harris' and the Democratic Party's positions certainly will not help Dem voter turnout.

And have read multiple analyses on why voters stayed home in critical populations which are reliable Democratic voters when they turn out.

Sticking your fingers in your ears because you don't like what you are hearing won't change the outcome next time, nor will yelling at people who stayed hone because we didn't even acknowledge that the concerns they raised were real.

The lies you are repeating will indeed depress turnout. Yet you keep repeating them.

2. What I am saying will only depress turnout if the powers that be fails to listen and learn from our mistakes, and it is true of how our candidates behave the next election.

The demonization of those who aren’t wailing and gnashing of teeth over a single issue (Gaza in this case) is why I struggle to have empathy for those willing to risk burning down the country for their “cause”. Having a more practical view is not akin to “supporting genocide”. How is it possible to have a conversation on an issue when you are screamed at if you don’t agree with the extreme viewpoint that anything outside of tearing down everything for a single cause means you are the enemy?

Well, you tried which is more than I can do with the “purity” police.

Why people wouldn't hear it is a separate issue. The media bears some responsibility, obviously. But I have a lot of bones to pick with young voters who claimed they wanted action on the "existential issue" of the environment, and student loan assistance, and to protect Roe v. Wade, and yet stayed home, or let themselves be derailed by the false belief that Biden was responsible for Gaza, or that Harris had a "police" background, I could go on, but you get my drift.

I saw a mention of inner city voters somewhere on this thread. Inner city is code for Black folks - starting to include Latinos.

92% and 78% of Black folks showed up.

But eh? White suburban women? Their racism and self-hate is a big reason why we are here.

it's beyond exhausting that white voters (men and women) have consistently voted in the majority for a GOP POTUS since the passage of the VRA in 1964...



And sadly (but unsurprisingly) the same demographic puts too much emphasis on the folks who are not the majority of voters. (I'm not saying shifts in voting patterns aren't something to be concerned about/learned from, but the majority who keeps voting for the GOP candidates as POTUS definitely should look inward and reflect on that and if they're not for the GOP, they need to speak out on it with their own families, friends, and social groups.)

Does it mean capitalism? Capitalism bad, Harris bad? Is it not understood that economic policies between parties are very different and only Republicans want deregulation, privatization, no taxes for industries and corporations, no environmental protections?

It just takes a moment to look up Democratic policies, the platform. Nobody is ignoring anything.

"But Wall Street" is from the anti-Democratic propaganda script from 2016, anyway.

even thought they aren't using the words "wall street" economy, that's what they are referring to. The big things that run our economy, including the stock market.

At the same time Biden and then Harris were touting Biden's strong economy, the voters who stayed home were saying loudly that they were unable to pay their bills before the money in their pocketbooks ran out - more of them were unemployed, housing prices were higher, food prices were higher.

We don't traditionally talk about the distinction between the two, but that is what mattered to many of the inner city voters who stayed home, and Harris waited too long to genuinely acknowledge that and to begin to address it.

Please cite your sources for this false claim. Thanks.

At least people in MAGA are delusional and in a bubble. These people really thought Trump wasn’t going to be far worse? What planet were they living on when Trump moved the embassy and constantly praised Israel his 1st term. Of course this was going to happen.

and the US did nothing to stop its support for Israel? Would you be dumb for holding that against the party in power?

I argued strenuously that everyone should have voted for Harris, but I also understand why those with a direct family connection found that hard to do.

Funny that doesn't get mentioned anymore.

Impending deaths, the Oct 7attack is overwhelmed by comparison. Unless of course one believes Israeli life is intrinsically more worthwhile. I personally believe each is equally worthwhile, whether Israeli or Palestinian. 120 Israeli lives lost are every bit as tragic as 120 Palestinian lives lost, and tens of thousands of Palestinians killed are yet more tragic, especially when Israeli's stated policy is to eradicate all 2 million lives in Gaza.