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GaYellowDawg

(5,052 posts)
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 01:44 AM Sep 11

It is possible to both condemn murder AND

To acknowledge that the victim was a horrible person.

I condemn the shooting of Charlie Kirk. It was grossly immoral. That is never a strong enough phrase for mass or political shootings, but it's the only one I have.

Charlie Kirk was a horrible person. He made a very lucrative living by telling lies and, more than anything, weaponizing religion. He was a racist, sexist misogynist pig who joyfully punched down at any marginalized group he could find. He trafficked in deception, in mischaracterizations, in distortions, was insulting and condescending at best, and used a variety of cheap rhetorical tricks to humiliate inexperienced debaters, then gleefully posted his "victories" on social media. He did absolutely no good and did considerable harm to society and American culture. He gave cover to the worst parts of American society, including but not limited to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and religious oppression, and did his utmost to mainstream and normalize them. He acted as if he was an expert in government, culture, sociology, philosophy, biology, and religion, but had no actual education or credentials. His "understanding" of any given topic consisted of cherry picking sources to support his viewpoint, and little else. He claimed to be a patriot, but distorted the events of the American Revolution and advocated for Christian nationalism; his "support" for the Constitution was entirely subservient to his twisted viewpoint. He claimed to be a Christian, but cherry picked the verses that promoted misogyny, homophobia, and hatred. He had a complete and overriding contempt for anyone who was not male, white, and fundamentalist, and considered every other group his intellectual and moral inferiors. His tours were vehicles to make money by promoting his reprehensible worldview. In short, Charlie Kirk was a professional asshole. He wasn't a First Amendment advocate or warrior. He was a First Amendment abuser.

But being a professional asshole and First Amendment abuser does not, has never, and never will warrant execution. It would have been far better to consistently meet him in public, expose his logical fallacies, highlight his lies, and tear his house of cards down point by point. To marginalize him by defeating his ideas. To expose him as the sham that he was. To whip him so consistently that he would be seen as the intellectual lightweight that he was. To send him back to obscurity. But that option is gone now, taken by someone who immorally and illegally took on the roles of judge, jury, and executioner. He will be lionized, eulogized, and sanctified for now. I don't believe he will be mourned for long - who, for instance, mourns Rush Limbaugh anymore? - but his memory will be whitewashed away from the destructive phenomenon that he was.

Are we obligated to condemn his murder? I believe so.

Are we obligated to sanitize him, lift him up, memorialize him, or feel sympathy? Hell, no. Kirk stated that gun deaths were the price to be paid for the Second Amendment. He cared about neither those victims nor their families. Why should we care about him? I feel nothing about his death. No joy, but no mourning. I feel more for the puppy that Kristy Noem shot than I do Charlie Kirk. After all, the puppy never hurt anyone.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It is possible to both condemn murder AND (Original Post) GaYellowDawg Sep 11 OP
Yes RandySF Sep 11 #1
Rest in piss vercetti2021 Sep 11 #2
No gun death is acceptable, including Charlie Kirk's pat_k Sep 11 #3
If he thinks it's worth it, who am I to disagree with him? Crunchy Frog Sep 11 #8
At least he walked the walk. yardwork Sep 11 #12
Condemning murder every time someone is murdered is a waste of time RockRaven Sep 11 #4
Some grace us with their presence...some with their absence. roamer65 Sep 11 #5
There are shooting deaths in this country everyday. I'd never condone gun violence, but at the same time Crunchy Frog Sep 11 #6
I would put it the other way around Skittles Sep 11 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author COL Mustard Sep 11 #9
BEAUTIFULLY SAID!!! AZJonnie Sep 11 #10
Last week quakerboy Sep 11 #11
Charlie Kirk was evil. yardwork Sep 11 #13

RandySF

(77,372 posts)
1. Yes
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 01:47 AM
Sep 11

And I’m sick of the press calling his hate speech “political discourse” or “uncomfortable conversations”.

vercetti2021

(10,461 posts)
2. Rest in piss
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 01:47 AM
Sep 11

Sorry for his family, but fuck that guy. Made life for trans people hell cuz of his shit. Karma caught his ass.

pat_k

(11,789 posts)
3. No gun death is acceptable, including Charlie Kirk's
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 01:51 AM
Sep 11

On April 5, 2023, Charlie Kirk told us that gun deaths in America – which are 11 TIMES the number of gun deaths per capita in other high-income nations, driven primarily by a firearm homicide rate that is 25 TIMES that of comparable nations* – are an acceptable “cost” of their "righteous," extremist, reactionary opposition to ALL gun regulation, no matter how modest the measure or how many lives the measure would save.

"I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights."


I suspect that it never occurred to him that he would be one of those deaths he believed are "worth it."

While I grieve the manner of his death as a tragic reflection of the intolerable level of gun violence in our nation, I do not grieve the loss of a man who called for some "amazing patriot" to bail out Paul Pelosi’s attacker.


Clarence Darrow’s quote comes to mind:

“I've never wished a man dead, but I've read some obituaries with great pleasure”


*2015 numbers

RockRaven

(18,022 posts)
4. Condemning murder every time someone is murdered is a waste of time
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 02:04 AM
Sep 11

and a ridiculous expectation or demand, if one were to make it.

Why? Because decent people condemn murder categorically, and it is implied and baked in to every thought and conversation.

The fact that media, politicians, and frankly a lot of the public make such demands of public figures or their other interlocutors is those people revealing that they consider that condemnation an open question and are either insulting their conversation partner or telling on themselves.

Crunchy Frog

(28,046 posts)
6. There are shooting deaths in this country everyday. I'd never condone gun violence, but at the same time
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 02:20 AM
Sep 11

I'm not going to go out of my way to get upset about this particular example.

I'm still in mourning over the two dozen Ukrainian pensioners killed the other day by russia. CK was a major purveyor of russian fascist talking points.

Skittles

(167,527 posts)
7. I would put it the other way around
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 02:22 AM
Sep 11

it is possible to acknowledge he was an asshole AND COMDEMN MURDER

Response to GaYellowDawg (Original post)

quakerboy

(14,548 posts)
11. Last week
Thu Sep 11, 2025, 01:48 PM
Sep 11

I was coming down a road late at night, and got flagged down. I quickly saw a second person on the other side of the road, lying in the middle of the lane, with a third party attending him. The flagger asked if i could call 911, as the person on the ground had just been shot. I did so, and pulled my car around to block the road in case anyone else came in the dark and had slower reflexes.

Shortly later a bunch of police showed up, and I was sent on my way. I am tracking what happened to this random human ive never met or talked to, hoping he recovers.

As far as Kirk is concerned, I have only one question. Where are the Epstein Files?

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