General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt is possible to both condemn murder AND
To acknowledge that the victim was a horrible person.
I condemn the shooting of Charlie Kirk. It was grossly immoral. That is never a strong enough phrase for mass or political shootings, but it's the only one I have.
Charlie Kirk was a horrible person. He made a very lucrative living by telling lies and, more than anything, weaponizing religion. He was a racist, sexist misogynist pig who joyfully punched down at any marginalized group he could find. He trafficked in deception, in mischaracterizations, in distortions, was insulting and condescending at best, and used a variety of cheap rhetorical tricks to humiliate inexperienced debaters, then gleefully posted his "victories" on social media. He did absolutely no good and did considerable harm to society and American culture. He gave cover to the worst parts of American society, including but not limited to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and religious oppression, and did his utmost to mainstream and normalize them. He acted as if he was an expert in government, culture, sociology, philosophy, biology, and religion, but had no actual education or credentials. His "understanding" of any given topic consisted of cherry picking sources to support his viewpoint, and little else. He claimed to be a patriot, but distorted the events of the American Revolution and advocated for Christian nationalism; his "support" for the Constitution was entirely subservient to his twisted viewpoint. He claimed to be a Christian, but cherry picked the verses that promoted misogyny, homophobia, and hatred. He had a complete and overriding contempt for anyone who was not male, white, and fundamentalist, and considered every other group his intellectual and moral inferiors. His tours were vehicles to make money by promoting his reprehensible worldview. In short, Charlie Kirk was a professional asshole. He wasn't a First Amendment advocate or warrior. He was a First Amendment abuser.
But being a professional asshole and First Amendment abuser does not, has never, and never will warrant execution. It would have been far better to consistently meet him in public, expose his logical fallacies, highlight his lies, and tear his house of cards down point by point. To marginalize him by defeating his ideas. To expose him as the sham that he was. To whip him so consistently that he would be seen as the intellectual lightweight that he was. To send him back to obscurity. But that option is gone now, taken by someone who immorally and illegally took on the roles of judge, jury, and executioner. He will be lionized, eulogized, and sanctified for now. I don't believe he will be mourned for long - who, for instance, mourns Rush Limbaugh anymore? - but his memory will be whitewashed away from the destructive phenomenon that he was.
Are we obligated to condemn his murder? I believe so.
Are we obligated to sanitize him, lift him up, memorialize him, or feel sympathy? Hell, no. Kirk stated that gun deaths were the price to be paid for the Second Amendment. He cared about neither those victims nor their families. Why should we care about him? I feel nothing about his death. No joy, but no mourning. I feel more for the puppy that Kristy Noem shot than I do Charlie Kirk. After all, the puppy never hurt anyone.

RandySF
(77,372 posts)And Im sick of the press calling his hate speech political discourse or uncomfortable conversations.
vercetti2021
(10,461 posts)Sorry for his family, but fuck that guy. Made life for trans people hell cuz of his shit. Karma caught his ass.
pat_k
(11,789 posts)On April 5, 2023, Charlie Kirk told us that gun deaths in America which are 11 TIMES the number of gun deaths per capita in other high-income nations, driven primarily by a firearm homicide rate that is 25 TIMES that of comparable nations* are an acceptable cost of their "righteous," extremist, reactionary opposition to ALL gun regulation, no matter how modest the measure or how many lives the measure would save.
I suspect that it never occurred to him that he would be one of those deaths he believed are "worth it."
While I grieve the manner of his death as a tragic reflection of the intolerable level of gun violence in our nation, I do not grieve the loss of a man who called for some "amazing patriot" to bail out Paul Pelosis attacker.
Link to tweet
Clarence Darrows quote comes to mind:
*2015 numbers
Crunchy Frog
(28,046 posts)yardwork
(68,066 posts)(Too soon?)
RockRaven
(18,022 posts)and a ridiculous expectation or demand, if one were to make it.
Why? Because decent people condemn murder categorically, and it is implied and baked in to every thought and conversation.
The fact that media, politicians, and frankly a lot of the public make such demands of public figures or their other interlocutors is those people revealing that they consider that condemnation an open question and are either insulting their conversation partner or telling on themselves.
roamer65
(37,790 posts)It is what it is.
Crunchy Frog
(28,046 posts)I'm not going to go out of my way to get upset about this particular example.
I'm still in mourning over the two dozen Ukrainian pensioners killed the other day by russia. CK was a major purveyor of russian fascist talking points.
Skittles
(167,527 posts)it is possible to acknowledge he was an asshole AND COMDEMN MURDER
Response to GaYellowDawg (Original post)
COL Mustard This message was self-deleted by its author.
AZJonnie
(1,569 posts)
quakerboy
(14,548 posts)I was coming down a road late at night, and got flagged down. I quickly saw a second person on the other side of the road, lying in the middle of the lane, with a third party attending him. The flagger asked if i could call 911, as the person on the ground had just been shot. I did so, and pulled my car around to block the road in case anyone else came in the dark and had slower reflexes.
Shortly later a bunch of police showed up, and I was sent on my way. I am tracking what happened to this random human ive never met or talked to, hoping he recovers.
As far as Kirk is concerned, I have only one question. Where are the Epstein Files?
yardwork
(68,066 posts)Murder is wrong.
Just another day in America.