Talk about burning your base.

To include an article from Axios that gave more details on the ACA subsidies part of the deal.
No guarantees. Vote wouldn't happen until December. Would require a 60 vote margin. No guarantee Mango Mussolini would sign it

That quoted Senators Sanders and Slotkin (of which Slotkin had been part of negotiations) to say that, essentially, they are a "no".

And other articles. If you have a different source with better information I will update my OP

that they are voting for the 15th time tonight (per Thune)

And that they may have enough democratic votes - https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5597679-senate-funding-measure-shutdown-end/

where did you find "otherwise" ???

Charlie Brown.

And a couple others I read. I hope it's wrong but given Senate Democrats history on CRs.

I'm proud of our Dems.

Solomon's "good mother" did the right thing. If this goes through, we won.

60 votes are needed for the subsidy vote, assuming it even occurs. Those subsidies are toast.

I trust our Dems. Republicans don't want a healthcare nightmare in an election year. And kids don't go hungry. That last is the ultimate blackmail.

But could you list the 15 republican senators who would definitely vote for it? I doubt it

For years to destroy the ACA and democrats will be blamed. They are not saving snap so what did we win? Nothing. Schumer needs to go.

This battle was over when Ketanji Brown Jackson halted snap payments, unless you are willing to sacrifice citizens to win. trump IS.

The next battle is in 2 months, hopefully with snap locked in place you can shut down the government for a lot longer if needed to force the GOP on Healthcare subsidies.

and two, it's been explained ad nauseum why she did this.

No matter the reason that was the moment the battle was lost, but not the war. Regroup and win the next battle in January.

And YES if we continue the shutdown, DEMS starving people too. If you have the power/ability to stop people from dying and refuse then YES YOU'RE ALSO TO BLAME.

trump & the GOP are willing to let people die to win, Democrats rightfully so, are not.

We get nothing.

We are folding on the main reason Democrats started this whole thing. They are giving up on the ACA subsidies.
I cannot emphasize this enough: if we do not restore the subsidies before the end of the year the entire US healthcare system will collapse. That is not metaphorical or hyperbolic.

...they're talking about the enhanced subsidies added in 2021, which are expiring because there was never any agreement to make them permanent. They came about because of COVID. If they expire, it's not like Obamacare collapses. Rather, it reverts back to what it was in 2020. It will definitely make things a lot worse for a lot of people, and I'm not advocating for it. But IMO, saying that what we had in 2020 was so bad that going back to it means that "the entire US healthcare system will collapse" is indeed exactly what you said it wasn't: hyperbolic.

That wasn't my opinion. People are already getting their estimates for next year without the expiring subsidies factored in and their costs for insurance are going from $400/month to $1200/month or higher.

People can't afford that and healthy people will drop a d risk it. Leaving a larger pool of higher risk patients that will cause another increase in premiums to account for the smaller pool of healthy people.

...you have to wonder why the entire system wasn't on the verge of collapsing in 2020, when we were operating under those rules. (As I mentioned in another post, the new rules came about because of covid, not because the system was collapsing.) If the system was working under those rules, I think it is hyperbole to say it will necessarily collapse if we go back to them.

Again, I want those subsidies extended. (Or at least some version of them.) I'm just saying that, while it would be bad if they weren't, the fact that the old rules had not led to the the collapse of the entire US healthcare system is strong evidence that going back to them would not lead to that collapse either.

the thousand which would destroy ACA. This is a betray to those who have fought Trump and will likely destroy the midterm for us. Everyone write your senators and house members. Every Democrat who caves will be primaries. Schumer for sure.

Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2025, 09:59 PM - Edit history (1)

...there were people with incomes that were a bit too high to qualify for subsidies originally, and with the 2021 enhancements to the program, their income now qualified. If we return to 2020 rules, their income will no longer qualify. So if the 2021 changes cut their premiums by 2/3, then yes, letting those changes expire will put them back where they were in 2020, before that 2/3 cut, which means yes, triple what they are now paying.

I am not in favor of cutting back on the subsidies. I'm just saying I don't think it would destroy the ACA. If having the subsidies back at 2020 levels would destroy the ACA, doesn't that make you wonder why the ACA had not collapsed in 2020? (The enhanced subsides came about, not because the ACA was on the verge of collapsing, but because of covid.)

But as for the *political* implications you refer to, yeah, that's a concern. And if we do indeed lose this fight, the handling of the messaging could be critical as we come to the midterms, agreed.

And yes, I'm being sarcastic.

What alternatives are there for affordable Healthcare?

The Democrats don't gain anything here. A promise to vote on healthcare is useless, especially if it only involves the senate. The whole point of the shutdown was to guarantee an extension of the subsidies and that isn't in this deal.

In fact, you could reason this whole episode was pointless and that the Democrats prolonged the shutdown for no reason if they can't get a guarantee on the subsidy extension.

Regardless, I'm hoping it's not true but I'm gonna contact those supposedly wavering to plead they don't cave.

It’s only for a short CR, if Dems don’t get what they want, they shut it down again.

Because they've already blinked and already have prolonged the longest shutdown in US history and gained nothing for it. The whole point of the original shutdown was to hold the Republicans' feet to the fire on the subsidies and they didn't get an extension out of that ... so do they really think Americans are going to trust they'll get it a second time?

I'm sorry but that's not the optics you think it is. If that's the narrative that comes out of this shutdown, Democrats will be the scapegoat for it. The whole point was to force Republicans into concessions and they got nothing if this deal goes through. So, all that pain to help those on the ACA ... was in vain.

and Repigs clearly weren't going to cave before more damage was done.

You don't think Dems would be blamed for ruining Thanksgiving?

All the Rs are going to do is say if Dems thought it was so important, why did they cave?!

No way will Dems be blamed by regular people for high healthcare costs under these circumstances.

How so?

Since the Republicans will always threaten dire consequences on everything if they don't get their way, does that mean we should always cave?

Charlie and Dems fold for nothing and in January - government closes down again. WHAT A WIN!

Especially when the article only quotes John Thune (who is a Republican in case y’all forgot).

With another article from Axios. It says a lot of the same but includes more details on the ACA subsidies vote.

He's too old to stomach the job.

I’ll be depressed.

I don't believe there are the votes for this to pass.

Hakeem Jeffries has said that the House Democrats will not sign any legislation that merely promises future talks on health care subsidies.

So Thune's plan would be DOA at the House even if is somehow passed the Senate, which is doubtful.

To include an article from Axios that gives more details on the ACA subsidies vote in December.

There is no way Democrats will go for that. Nobody trusts the con artist and nobody trust the Republican Congress members either.

Instead of to the companies.


That is more or less the same thing.

Without the subsidies built into the system the costs would be prohibitive still. It's been structured the way it is for a reason.

"Its better than nothing."

and they would have to pay income tax on them come April 15.

My words are aging like milk 😆

The entire economy will collapse if the shutdown doesn't end.

GOP Senators will get an earful from constituents.

...

That may support the deal falling apart:

I think someone else also pointed out the Slotkin is against the "deal" without concrete evidence of good faith from the repigs, which we all know, there is no such thing as concrete evidence of good faith with them.

This is definitely a positive update.

Is that Senate Dems have caved and they have more than enough votes to pass

Don’t come up with a satisfactory solution to health care for those on the ACA, couldn’t democrats use this against them in future elections? Maybe I am being naive.

Without the subsidies the healthcare system will collapse. People will not be able to afford healthcare and it will impact more than just ACA costs but employer provided health insurance as well. Maybe not for this year but for next year for sure.

If you say you are drawing a line because you stand for something, and then don't stand for it, you earn contempt.

Threats like this drive the party further to the right and center-right... to pick up lost votes of the purists and virtue-signalers. They think they're punishing the party, but they're only punishing themselves. Genius.

nor am I saying what exactly the Democrats position ought to be/ought to have been -- only noting that the failure of the action to match the talk is going to cost them votes.

We're not the Republicans isn't enough. Okay so you aren't the Republicans but what have you done thus far to differentiate yourself. The message will be democrats forced a shutdown on an issue made people go without pay and go without snap benefits and in the end caved and got nothing. How does that help get voters out.

Basically begging him to stand firm and NOT cave.

His mailbox was not full so that means not enough people are calling him. I call all the senators all the time in every state and a voice mail box should be filled with calls until it can't take any more. More Americans must call!!!!

After an election night when Democrats, because of their stand and because the GOP is getting the hell beaten out of them for this shutdown, Schumer is going to cave on this?

Why can't this party get it?

If this is true, and it is what they are planning to do, then we are setting outselves up to lose without being beaten.

Why do they do this? How could they be so spineless when they have to stand up for us?

Sheesh, what is the point of this? A measly 2 months??

You stop the pain now for government workers, and snap recipients
It gives time for the snap thing to get though the court system.
You get the GOP on record refusing to help pay for healthcare (if they do vote it down)
Then in January you can close the government down again with snap in place and be able to hold out until they agree on Healthcare

Without the subsidies, ACA costs could go up as much as 1000% starting in January. People will drop their coverage and start the spiral of the healthcare collapse.

That a January deal would include language to allow a special enrollment period. That being said, it might take longer than that and in the meantime people would be without healthcare.

I just really hate this whole "open enrollment" and "insurance" crap. Health care should be a right, period.

and finding common ground (or at least the appearance, temporarily) to give some breathing room. These folks who want everything right now, no compromise, all or nothing... will always end up with nothing. Sad.

There will be no getting back on.

There’s no give with the rethuglican terrorist organization. Dems give and they take. This isn’t difficult to see.

People still suffer

it is pissing off people who have to wait in lines at airports around the country.

So, we give in and lose healthcare? We won't have this type of bargaining power in January. Right now is the time to say "No deal without an agreement on ACA in writing". And not "oh we'll vote on that in December". They lie daily.

Especially after a blue tsunami in the middle of this shutdown, the party needs to be prepared to lose a base of fired up supporters who will view this move as a betrayal. The GOP isn't budging on the subsidies, they've said so for weeks. They're already attempting to paint subsidies as a Democratic handout to insurance companies. Any "promise of a vote" is the dumbest, weakest agreement possible because a promise of a vote isn't bringing down people's deductibles.

If you want basic human rights (food, clothing, shelter, education, health care), you can get a job and pay ever-inflating prices for them like good rich people do, you lazy bum. It's extreme Calvinist Protestant (a.k.a. "Evangelical" or fundamentalist) Christianity in practice: the poor are poor because it's their fault and they're not going to heaven because God doesn't shine upon them - so why bother worrying?

While nothing is sure yet, it's a good. bet that Democrats will cave on the budget "for the sake of the country." Which is to say for the sake of the wealthy people, investment funds and corporations. That's what we get for electing"moderates." The whole "vote blue" regardless thing has gotten us here, where all the moderates want to do is get (re)elected, bipartisan with their friends across the aisle, do insider trading without penalty and get some sinecure position on a corporate board if they've arrived at the point of feathering their nest enough (see Kristen Sinema). Anyone can call themselves a Democrat, and lots of right-wingers run as Democrats because of history or media-encouraged perception. See Hawai'i for a worst-case example. The current party leadership's notions of government resembles Nixon's GOP more than anything else (perhaps with a bit less megalomania). Saying "we don't have ideological parties" is, perhaps, the biggest sleight-of-hand (a.k.a., con) that anyone's been able to pull of since the invention of religion.

The push to take the party further and further right that began with Carter and reached nauseating proportions with Clinton and Obama got us right here. That's allowed the GOP to move ever further right, too, and leads us straight to Trumpism. The elite is delighted at seldom having to worry about things like "socialism," however much they're presently losing their shit over Mamdani; and all power rests with the elite in our system where money is "free speech. While folks rightly say Schumer is A problem, he's hardly THE only problem. For example, almost everyone on this site has been celebrating the "big wins" in the NJ and VA governors' races. Both those women were Blue Dog Caucus before having a very public falling out with Jared Golden - not over policy, but over the name. They are the far right of your party and are running to crucial states. Big wins, those. We here at DU love elephants in jackass costumes, unless it's Schumer's good friend Joe Manchin, apparently.

Electing "moderates" is why we can't have nice things.

Really hope.

What could go wrong?

The GOP seems to be self-destructing, don’t get in their way!

Except, it's peoples lives at stake. So, combo, Deal No Deal, Weasley Shit?, Hunger Games? WTF??

Last edited Sun Nov 9, 2025, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Once, again, the Democrats have rescued Republicans and will have the football yanked away when Republicans do nothing on affordable healthcare.

The fact this party can’t ever speak and act in a completely unified manner is extremely demoralizing. Even if there’s no cave, it’s clear some of these people are more than ready to give up the fight.

They won't follow through on Any agreement! Fuck, how many times Dems gonna fall for this shit?!?

"It would guarantee a vote in the Senate on the issue at a later date." Sure, it will. When has McConnell ever screwed us?

It’s only for a short CR, if democrats don’t get what they want, they shut it down again.

There may not even be a vote and if there was they could just sink it. Giving more up yet again.

and make the promise of a vote to extend the ACA credits in Dec and when the time comes for the vote, "we'll just fuck the Democrats, as usual" all the while laughing at how gullible Dems are.

Just another way for them to boost eyeballs.

(very moderate) is against this without more guarantees.

Why have the shutdown in the first place? All of the suffering for nothing? This would make Republicans look strong and Democrats look weak.

Democrats will fuck up our massive victories on Tuesday?

Welp.

Time for AOC to run and whup Schumer who has wasted all his capital by his numerous caves. What a weak useless man.

This recent electoral brush with victory may have scared them into submission. Because if we were to win, take any actual power, then we would be expected to use the power to help Americans, and that might conflict with easy donations and friendly lobbyists.

Or, if im more charitable in my interpretation, it could be interpreted as personal cowardice. Standing up and gaining/using real power would put them in conflict with the dictator. There is personal danger in being in that position.

I remember when the ACA was considered all but dead, until the senior Senator from AZ did a thumbs down, and Mitch McConnell looked like he'd been slapped in the face. Bernie Sanders knew before hand which way McCain would vote and if you watch tape of that, you can see him whispering to Jeanne Shaheen something along the lines of "watch this."

My point is, it ain't done until it's done. So keep elbows and chins up folks!

Moscow Mitch looked like he had been hit between the eyes with a hammer when Sen. McCain did his thumb down gesture.
He was sure he had the votes to kill off the ACA.

Poor Mitch.

I am so disappointed and disagree with capitulating to terrorists, hostage takers, liars and crooks as these republican prove to be. Where are the fighters we elected?

people that Trump is taking healthcare away from tens of millions of people to give tax cuts to his rich buddies who are going to help him get even richer. If that had happened, Trump would be on 30% approval and our bargaining power would be in a much stronger position. As it is, I would bet most people don't even know that basic fact.