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bigtree

(94,056 posts)
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 02:15 PM 13 hrs ago

Israel's self-perpetuating cycle of violence is now unmistakably our own dilemma

...it's what successive presidencies have danced around for decades, speciously seeking to represent the U.S. as apart from generations of violent attacks and reprisals in the Middle East; even as we arm one side to the hilt while Russia and China pump money and weapons into the hands of our adversaries on the other...

...all of the violence is reprehensible and tragic, on all sides, no equivocation.

Thing is, we've done what we could to preserve at least the appearance of clean hands in all of the back and forth abominations of humanity, all the while the U.S. acting as a steadfast ally to Israel from the very start of their existence as a recognized nation.

Escalating the arming of them right before they ethnically-cleansed Gaza was a pretty clear advocacy by the U.S. of what Israel has done in the aftermath; and attacking Iran arm-in-arm with them, without any hint of any international alliance, has erased any hesitance or pretense which still existed about the threat Israel represents to the region as a front for U.S. imperialism and expansionism.

And, this, the other day:

Israel is bombing Lebanon as war with Hezbollah escalates

After attacks on Iran, Hezbollah launched missiles and drones into Israel on Monday for the first time in over a year. Israel retaliated with bombardment of southern Lebanon and the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs of Beirut after ordering its residents to leave, while the Iran-backed group warned Israelis to leave towns and villages at the frontier.

The Israeli military said it had carried out 26 waves of strikes overnight in the southern suburbs, saying targets included Hezbollah's command centres and weapons storage facilities.

In a televised address, Qassem on Wednesday said his terror group’s resumption of rocket attacks on Israel this week is a response to the country’s continued presence and airstrikes in Lebanon since the November 2024 Israel-Hezbollah ceasefire deal.

The Lebanese government has accused the Iran-backed proxy group of dragging Lebanon into a regional war, after the US and Israel launched a bombing campaign on Iran that the Islamic Republic has responded to with missile and drone strikes across the region.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-israel-is-bombing-lebanon-as-war-with-hezbollah-escalates/ar-AA1XET5p

___Israel's retaliatory strikes killed more than 50 people as of Monday, according to Lebanon’s health ministry. The number of civilians and combatants is unknown. At least 30,000 people have been displaced, the United Nations said.

Despite being bombarded almost daily for months, Hezbollah has not fired rockets at Israel since the US-brokered ceasefire in November 2024. This period included the 12-day war against Iran last June.

But, in a statement following its attack on Sunday, Hezbollah framed its action as “revenge for the pure blood of the Islamic leader, the Honourable Grand Ayatollah”.

The statement added: “His blood was shed in treachery by the criminal Zionist enemy. We will fulfil our duty in confronting aggression ... in defence of Lebanon and its people, and as a response to the repeated Israeli attacks.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/israel-launches-ground-invasion-lebanon-133432607.html



...is this the consequence?

Suspect in synagogue attack lost family in recent airstrike in Lebanon, source says
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/what-we-know-about-the-michigan-synagogue-attack/ar-AA1Yvv7T


Trump broke down the last vestiges of international cooperation and law with his wanton assassinations of still-nameless individuals the perpetually prevaricating president opportunistically labeled without presenting any evidence as enemies and terrorists who threatened America; and even further with his bombing of Venezuela and the kidnapping of their president.

He's cast the U.S. as adversary to what are essentially millions of people in other countries who would understandably resist his military assaults across their sovereign borders, committed behind provably false pretexts which confoundedly conflate the non-combatant civilians with the sins of governments and regimes the U.S. is insisting are dictatorial and repressive of their populations that we're bombing with indifference to their humanity.

So many words to point out that violence begets violence. That seemingly simple understanding has instructed most U.S. presidents; both the ones who sought to bomb their way to political outcomes; and the ones who sought to defend or retaliate against threats or attacks against America or our interests abroad.

It's also why we've always expected or demanded presidents explain what they are trying to achieve when they use military force. It's not as if there is some question that we can destroy countries with the force of our military or our weapons.

The question has always been 'why' we undertake such a devastating and sometimes counterproductive action, and what are the expected consequences, because, outside of the absolute ridiculousness in the expectation that the world is just going to roll over because we're threatening them, there's always a concern about how we want the people who find themselves underneath our bombs to regard us.

It's a question of what kind of world we want to live in, at least for those of us already witnessed to and instructed on the efficacy, wisdom, and limits on the use of military force; especially to achieve political outcomes.

Right now, we're on the precipice of becoming the pariahs of the world, for whatever reason or view some might hold of America and the people who live here, and it's essentially because Donald Trump appears just fine that his humanity-decimating aggression is driving us there.

Remember that, when we get back to an 'us vs. them' point where we're back to defending against the consequences of our own government's thoughtless aggression against contrived enemies which does little but encourage even more people to violent expressions of resistance against America's swaggering imperialism.

These aren't just things people say. It's how empires have risen and fallen, and, we're such a young nation; full of ourselves right now and playing ourselves out of position.

None of this has to happen, none of the violence and we can just stop now and deal with the consequences as they come; like Lebanon had done before we stopped giving them a reason to believe in the promises of America, and chose to make people in that region fear and revile us.

There's nothing at the end of what Trump had unleashed which isn't some form of perpetual war. That's what generations of American pols and presidents have sought to end; what this president mindlessly seeks to enjoin.
8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel's self-perpetuating cycle of violence is now unmistakably our own dilemma (Original Post) bigtree 13 hrs ago OP
DURec leftstreet 13 hrs ago #1
K&R 2naSalit 12 hrs ago #2
A lot of Dems, like myself, see Israel as what it is... gulliver 12 hrs ago #3
I'll bite, what's the citation for the population of Palestinians in Gaza going up? EdmondDantes_ 12 hrs ago #4
I removed that a few minutes ago and noted it in the post. gulliver 12 hrs ago #5
those questions of 'nationalism' are resolved in our Constitution bigtree 11 hrs ago #6
"pluralistic, multi-ethnic democracy and ally" true but moving towards religious nuttery BlueWaveNeverEnd 6 hrs ago #8
the airstrike in Lebanon was March 5 bigtree 6 hrs ago #7

gulliver

(13,929 posts)
3. A lot of Dems, like myself, see Israel as what it is...
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 03:17 PM
12 hrs ago

...a pluralistic, multi-ethnic democracy and ally. I don't see the war in Gaza as "ethnic cleansing." It's still all Palestinian. Nor is it "genocide." It still has a huge population. (Originally, I thought the population went up, but Grok corrected me.)

I don't know why it would be, but Islamic nationalism just seems to be a blind spot for a lot of Americans, left and right. You'll see discussions of Christian nationalism, but not Islamic nationalism. No idea why. You would think the far right would approve of Islamic nationalism to the extent that it is socially arch-conservative, theocratic, patriarchal, racist, homophobic, etc. On the other hand, the far left shouldn't approve of Islamic nationalism for the same reason.

I think the non-Iran Islamic world is showing signs of moderating and controlling Islamic nationalism, accepting and working with Israel, and getting the world down to the business of human prosperity. Not sure how this Iran war is going to turn out, but if we can get Islamic nationalism way, way down, the world, including moderate Muslims, should benefit. My take.

EdmondDantes_

(1,699 posts)
4. I'll bite, what's the citation for the population of Palestinians in Gaza going up?
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 03:25 PM
12 hrs ago

And when 47% of Israelis in a poll supported killing all Palestinians, that's not exactly pluralistic and multi-ethnic.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/poll-82-of-israelis-want-to-expel-palestinians-from-gaza-47-want-to-kill-every-man-woman-child/ar-AA1FPQHi

I get the anger that Israelis have because Hamas and affiliated groups are just horrible, but it's also not like Israel has been purely innocent either (nor have other middle eastern countries or the US or anyone involved).

gulliver

(13,929 posts)
5. I removed that a few minutes ago and noted it in the post.
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 03:30 PM
12 hrs ago

Admittedly, I should have checked it. I have a habit of checking and updating. For example, these lines.

And, yeah, the sentiment to "remove all Palestinians" from Gaza by 47% of Israelis doesn't surprise me. We'll see how it actually turns out. Neutralizing Iran might completely change the equation if Hamas, Hezbollah, and other tentacles no longer have a blood supply. Not sure.

bigtree

(94,056 posts)
6. those questions of 'nationalism' are resolved in our Constitution
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 03:51 PM
11 hrs ago

The Constitution of the United States addresses the question of nationalism by establishing a framework that balances the power between the national and state governments. It does this through the separation of powers, the division of government into legislative, executive, and judicial branches, and the reservation of certain powers to the states.

This division helps to prevent any one government from monopolizing power and ensures that the government operates in a way that respects the rights and responsibilities of both the federal and state governments.

The Constitution's design is a response to the challenges of the Articles of Confederation, which were seen as inadequate for the new nation's needs. By creating a more complex and structured government, the Constitution aims to protect individual liberties and promote a system of checks and balances that ensures no single branch of government can dominate the others.

https://constitutioncenter.org/essays/federalism

...another fun fact:

Israel was supposed to have a constitution. This was specifically stipulated in United Nations resolution 181, and in Israel’s Declaration of Independence it was said that it would establish a democratic constitution.

As Prof. Aeyal Gross of Tel Aviv University’s Faculty of Law noted, Israel was built on the legacy of English common law and the British system. There was a feeling among some that a constitution wasn’t necessary when Israel was already a democracy; the United Kingdom didn’t have a written constitution, so it was questioned why it was necessary for the nascent state.

There were other more practical reasons. Religious parties, for instance, argued that the Jewish people already has a constitution, the Torah.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-730474

...as I'm wont to reflect on both Israel and Arab nations actions from the perspective of an American citizen, I'm eternally bemused how our politics assumes a secular resolution to a conflict in which the principles in power and authority on both sides believe in one form of the other of an apoplectic end to their respective struggles.

Even more confounding are those who are compelled by their own sense of and belief in the divine to urge our secular government to act on these Middle Eastern conflicts; ostensibly out of concern for Israel's democracy, but firmly rooted in religious affinities and affiliations.

Thomas Jefferson (who was a quasi Arab-nationalist; kept a copy of the Quran, etc., advocated equal treatment and regard of religious belief) was said to struggle with his own religious belief in the divinity of the nation's founding, which is reflected in many expressions and even actions of our government today:

In 'Notes on the State of Virginia,' Jefferson wrote:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situations, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest."

Good question for those who concern themselves with such things.


BlueWaveNeverEnd

(13,966 posts)
8. "pluralistic, multi-ethnic democracy and ally" true but moving towards religious nuttery
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 08:46 PM
6 hrs ago

And disappears Palestinians into those prisons

And practices collective punishment on the Palestians

bigtree

(94,056 posts)
7. the airstrike in Lebanon was March 5
Fri Mar 13, 2026, 08:42 PM
6 hrs ago

...fwiw.

An Israeli airstrike on March 5 killed four people in the town of Mashgharah, Lebanese officials reported. Israel has stepped up attacks on the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon as the war with Iran has spread violence across the Middle East.

A local official in Mashgharah told The Associated Press on Friday that the airstrike killed Ghazali’s two brothers, a niece and a nephew at their home just after sunset as they were having their fast-breaking meal during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

The official, who requested anonymity because he could not publicly discuss details of the airstrike, told the AP that Kassim and Ibrahim Ghazali were killed, along with Ibrahim Ghazali’s children, Ali and Fatima. Their mother was seriously wounded and remains in the hospital, the official said.




"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy," MLK said in 1967.

"Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars."
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