Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

LetMyPeopleVote

(181,599 posts)
Thu May 7, 2026, 04:25 PM 20 hrs ago

Astounded judges force Pete Hegseth lawyer to concede that Sen. Mark Kelly never said 'disobey lawful orders'

Kelly did nothing wrong. Kelly only told the troops that the troops should not fallow ILLEGAL orders



https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/i-mean-this-is-really-basic-astounded-judges-force-pete-hegseth-lawyer-to-concede-that-sen-mark-kelly-never-said-disobey-lawful-orders/

U.S. Circuit Judges Karen LeCraft Henderson, Florence Pan, and Cornelia Pillard, respectively appointed by Presidents George H.W. Bush, Joe Biden, and Barack Obama, formed the panel, a fact that Law&Crime pointed out after Hegseth finally filed the promised appeal of his loss. Despite technical difficulties with the court's publicly posted audio stream, Pillard and Pan's grilling of a DOJ attorney was enough to glean which way the wind is blowing.

"I mean, this is really basic," Pillard told the government. "You are not disagreeing that the video at issue that is the fulcrum of this case, Senator Kelly never says the words disobey lawful orders, right? I mean, that's uncontroversial. I understand you have a whole theory, but he doesn't say that, right?"

"Not in isolation, expressing —" the DOJ lawyer began to answer, before agreeing the judge was "correct."

In the lead-up to oral arguments, Kelly filed a brief recounting how President Donald Trump accused him and five other Democrats — Rep. Jason Crow, D-Colo., Rep. Maggie Goodlander, D-N.H., Reps. Chris Deluzio and Chrissy Houlahan, D-Pa., and Sen. Elissa Slotkin, D-Mich. — of engaging in "SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR, punishable by DEATH!" when they appeared in a video in November, condemned lethal military strikes on alleged drug smugglers' boats in international waters, and stated, "you can refuse illegal orders."

The Trump administration not only accused Kelly of "undermin[ing] the chain of command," "counsel[ing] disobedience," and engaging in "conduct unbecoming an officer" warranting a reduction in his retirement rank and pay grade, but U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro also launched a criminal investigation into the retired Navy captain and his fellow members of the so-called "Seditious Six." That ended in grand jury no-bills, and Kelly scored his lawsuit win days later in February.

All along, Kelly said "you can refuse illegal orders" referred to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and Pillard picked up on it.

"He says you have a duty to disobey unlawful orders, right? That is something that is taught at Annapolis to every cadet, right?" the judge asked.

The DOJ shot back that the "only reason" Kelly said what he did was because the sitting senator and astronaut had a "specific intent to influence active duty service members" and that "Captain Kelly was not purporting to give a speech in Annapolis on military law."

"How do we know that?" Pillard followed up.

Because Hegseth said so, the DOJ replied.

"This was the secretary's determination based off a review of a pattern of conduct in a series of public statements," the attorney said. "He determined — that was his inference, his characterization, that the statements were made with the intent to counsel disobedience."

Pillard and Pan dug deeper and suggested the government's case boils down to Hegseth's say-so that Kelly really meant "disobey lawful orders."

I do NOT feel sorry for this idiot attorney. Hegseth is a true idiot and the court should not rely of Hegseth's say so on anything. I have trouble seeing any competent lawyer advancing this argument. This lawyer should worry about being disbarred.
28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Astounded judges force Pete Hegseth lawyer to concede that Sen. Mark Kelly never said 'disobey lawful orders' (Original Post) LetMyPeopleVote 20 hrs ago OP
Hegs, fox Propaganda spewer Lies. Cha 20 hrs ago #1
tools gotta tool mike_c 20 hrs ago #2
The "pendulum of power" is orthoclad 19 hrs ago #10
There is no 'back' GenThePerservering 16 hrs ago #17
Of course he never said that. 3catwoman3 20 hrs ago #3
Hegseth is canetoad 20 hrs ago #4
What the lawyers can't admit is that this reveals that they want to redefine lawful orders tanyev 20 hrs ago #5
They lied to the judge?................... Lovie777 19 hrs ago #6
Senator Kelly only repeated the law-that soldiers must refuse follow illegal orders LetMyPeopleVote 19 hrs ago #7
Mark Kelly has more courage and fortitude.............. AZ8theist 9 hrs ago #23
This should happen more often. Randypiper 19 hrs ago #8
I am really having a hard time . . . AverageOldGuy 19 hrs ago #9
It's a dilemma, for sure... AZ8theist 9 hrs ago #24
Hegseth. OldBaldy1701E 5 hrs ago #27
I suspect any competent lawyer has... pat_k 19 hrs ago #11
Or at least the honest ones. orthoclad 12 hrs ago #22
It's not just at the service academies. TomSlick 19 hrs ago #12
I'll repeat BeneteauBum 18 hrs ago #13
Because Hegseth said so!!! chowder66 18 hrs ago #14
Every service member is taught that starting in basic. SeattleVet 17 hrs ago #15
Yep, it was part of my training in '64 MarineCombatEngineer 16 hrs ago #16
JFC.... They had to force the lawyer to say the truth? sakabatou 16 hrs ago #18
It is well-established at this point. This regime may clearly call what is lawful unlawful and the reverse. The... relogic 16 hrs ago #19
Another one who sold his soul mcar 16 hrs ago #20
A federal judge completely dismantles the DOJ, confirming that refusing illegal orders is textbook military training. LetMyPeopleVote 16 hrs ago #21
With his judgement, he shouldn't be allowed to order breakfast. BurnDoubt 9 hrs ago #25
Kelly should file a lawsuit against Kegsbreath Historic NY 5 hrs ago #26
The entire case rests on that particular pivot. The DOJ does not have a case. Period. Martin68 1 hr ago #28

mike_c

(37,120 posts)
2. tools gotta tool
Thu May 7, 2026, 04:41 PM
20 hrs ago

Every one of these DOJ tools need to understand that they're flushing their career prospects down the crapper. Eventually, either sooner or just a bit later, the pendulum of power will swing back. If they stay at DOJ their personnel evals will forever reflect their shitty lawyering on Trump's behalf. If they look for work elsewhere, their resume will give them away to any prospective employer who checks references. Of course, some MAGA law firm might offer them refuge, but who wants to be represented by the firm that hires the shitty lawyers?

orthoclad

(4,814 posts)
10. The "pendulum of power" is
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:42 PM
19 hrs ago

close to getting stuck. Like 1930s Germany. The "tools" are counting on this.

We must not be confident that everything will get better, or return to "normal". "Normal" is what got us here, anyway.

3catwoman3

(29,720 posts)
3. Of course he never said that.
Thu May 7, 2026, 04:47 PM
20 hrs ago

Senator Kelly knows more about the military and the Constitution than Kegsbreath ever will.

canetoad

(20,947 posts)
4. Hegseth is
Thu May 7, 2026, 04:59 PM
20 hrs ago

The gift that keeps on giving.

Long after most folk have forgotten the video made by Mark Kelly and colleagues, this case is keeping it alive and in front of the eyes of the public.

tanyev

(49,573 posts)
5. What the lawyers can't admit is that this reveals that they want to redefine lawful orders
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:02 PM
20 hrs ago

Last edited Thu May 7, 2026, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

as “whatever President Trump wants”.

Lovie777

(23,551 posts)
6. They lied to the judge?...................
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:08 PM
19 hrs ago

I will state this, GQP have broken all of the Ten Commandent and still continue to do so.

LetMyPeopleVote

(181,599 posts)
7. Senator Kelly only repeated the law-that soldiers must refuse follow illegal orders
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:18 PM
19 hrs ago

Senator Kelly never told the troops to disregard legal orders


AZ8theist

(7,577 posts)
23. Mark Kelly has more courage and fortitude..............
Fri May 8, 2026, 03:10 AM
9 hrs ago

..................in his fingernail trimmings than Doturd has in his bloated, treasonous, imbecilic ENTIRE FAMILY.

Randypiper

(548 posts)
8. This should happen more often.
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:30 PM
19 hrs ago

When they lie, they have to state the lie and admit they lied. Get it clearly on the record.

AverageOldGuy

(4,112 posts)
9. I am really having a hard time . . .
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:41 PM
19 hrs ago

. . . deciding who is the least competent, most stupid, and bigger asshole: Trump or Hegseth.

OldBaldy1701E

(11,453 posts)
27. Hegseth.
Fri May 8, 2026, 07:43 AM
5 hrs ago

The orange gibbon is collapsing in every way, so that behavior is to be expected.

Hegseth is just a spoiled asshole. A child who never grew up because no one made him grow up.

It is part of the issue with pretty much everyone in the top percentile. Entitled brats being pandered to just because they have money.

But, it is the American Way (R) so...

TomSlick

(13,075 posts)
12. It's not just at the service academies.
Thu May 7, 2026, 05:47 PM
19 hrs ago

Years ago, I taught law of war classes to basic trainees. Every class included a discussion of the duty to disobey and report unlawful orders. My bottom line was simple, an order to commit a crime, e.g. murder of civilians or enemy prisoners, was unlawful. Obeying such an order would be no defense in a trial for murder.

It is really not a difficult concept.

BeneteauBum

(718 posts)
13. I'll repeat
Thu May 7, 2026, 06:30 PM
18 hrs ago

This type of questioning is paramount to exposing lies and deceit. People in power should be evenhanded and discerning. Unfortunately, it seems that too many are partisan to tRump’s revenge tour that bears no merit.

Peace ☮️

SeattleVet

(5,924 posts)
15. Every service member is taught that starting in basic.
Thu May 7, 2026, 07:17 PM
17 hrs ago

It was part of my training in 1972, and reinforced every so often in various leadership classes over the 12 years I served in active duty.

relogic

(216 posts)
19. It is well-established at this point. This regime may clearly call what is lawful unlawful and the reverse. The...
Thu May 7, 2026, 08:37 PM
16 hrs ago

distinction has become eerily irrelevant under trump’s court, Congress, penal system, civil liberties and just about every facet of non-fascistic society. The apparatus and arsenal of defilement began with the Patriot Act 25 years ago.

They are intent to call we on the left the enemy of the (their) state because their hold on power to warp what is law is obvious on a minute to minute evolution.

LetMyPeopleVote

(181,599 posts)
21. A federal judge completely dismantles the DOJ, confirming that refusing illegal orders is textbook military training.
Thu May 7, 2026, 08:51 PM
16 hrs ago

The fact that trump's lawyer was destroyed makes me smile




Absolute humiliation for the Trump administration. A federal judge completely dismantles the DOJ, confirming that refusing illegal orders is textbook military training.

The Pentagon's attorney was left speechless when asked basic questions about free speech.

Total collapse!

Historic NY

(40,119 posts)
26. Kelly should file a lawsuit against Kegsbreath
Fri May 8, 2026, 07:17 AM
5 hrs ago

for lets say a billion dollars....put some pressure on the piss ant and his cronies. At the very least he sought to defame Kelly.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Astounded judges force Pe...