I was diagnosed with WPW... and I also had the microwave ablation. 7 catheters threaded through the femoral vein and the jugular vein. kinda of an experimental surgery in 1995.

I had John Alden GT insurance. Despite the cardiologist negotiating with them prior to the surgery, they attempted to stick me with the entire bill... $36,000 ( included the overnight stay for observation ). Lawyers from the hospital got involved... big mess.

I ended up paying $4000 of the bill because a doctor learning the procedure attended the surgery and he had not been included in the original agreement.

Shortly after that... my insurance left the state ( I think I was part of the decision ). With my prior diagnosis of WPW, getting other individual insurance was financially impossible ( $1000 / month with a $10,000 deductible from Blue Cross ).

BTW, my doc gave me 20 years with the heart surgery... it has been 30... knock on wood.

that all the MAGAot Voters, who now can't pay for their outrageous medical bills or buy medical insurance are paying attention to who screwed them over. And vote for the Dems.............(but doubtful, some right wing asshole will get on Fox News, and tell them.......It is Biden's fault, or Hillary's, or Bill Clinton, or even Jimmy Carter's fault...........

You can look! It won’t hurt, I promise.

All the best to you & yours DFW

I really have stuff to do in Belgium, France and Spain before the end of next week and should have been on the road tomorrow, preferably today as well. But while I may be an idiot, I am not Superman, and at 74, no matter how good I may feel at the breakfast table, that doesn’t mean that two days after a heart procedure, I should be risking day trips involving 4+ hours there (Brussels and Paris by train, Madrid by air, including airport security and transportation into town and back) and four hours back.

So, i don’t know what going rates for such treatment is there, or if it varies by region. My bill for a similar problem in Dallas, but with a two night stay, was $36000 and that was fifteen years ago.

I'm Canadian and my wife is American. About 13 years ago we moved back to Ontario, settling into Mississauga, a rather large suburb of Toronto. Being a Canadian citizen I automatically had health insurance. My wife did not, she had to wait until she got her permanent resident card and then she would be in.
Before she got her card she had a very bad stomach/body attack. She has a lot going on, lupus, lots of stomach issues etc. When her body attacks her it can be debilitating.
Anyway, she had one and we had no choice but to take her to the ER. When we checked in, because of her status we had to pay a $300 emergency room fee. After that, she was taken in and they ran a ton of tests on her, gave her all kinds of meds for pain etc. We were there for about 18 hours.
After things settled and she was better we went home. ON the way home, I was still in American health costs in my head and said to my wife that I was a little frightened about the impending bill. We reasoned that we'll figure it out, but it had to be done.
About 2 weeks later, a bill came in the mail from the hospital. Slowly I ripped it open expecting to see some crazy 5 figure bill.
Turns out, it was $1300 buck or there abouts.
I mean what she went through, the tests, the medications etc, I would wager if that had happened here in America, that would have cost at least $20/25K easily.
We were very relieved.
This is not to say that the Canadian Health care system doesn't need work. It does need a ton of work done and more money like most health care systems. But for me, at least they're trying.

If you are not German with a German health insurance, or at least one they recognize, they usually hit you with the full boat. No mercy. The difference is that the costs are far less than in the USA. My German wife had no health insurance here at all between the ages of 60 and 65 (no, there is NO universal coverage here), when her German version of Medicare kicked in. For five years, I had to pay for her German version of COBRA, about €550 or €600 per month. At $9000 a year, it wasn't cheap, but considering that she got a deadly cancer at age 64, and was in the hospital for nearly a month, I'm sure that treatment would have cost, even here, way more than the five years of supplemental insurance that I had to pay.

I figure I’m ahead of the game!

Thanks!

I have it on good authority that you are quite the gifted raconteur.

in America great? We are so proudly free (enterprise). We’ve got the best healthcare and choose to ration it out starting at the big numbers: at least $10, 20, 30 thousands or more a pop.

See how beautiful our system takes care of the least of these. No, stupid not those victims of poor health people. I mean the poor, “least of these stock holders crying about lower returns on their overinflated medical system. Ya gotta break a few eggs (hearts, livers and spleens) if you want a good heath system for us beautiful people can’t you see?.

He said that Germany was more advanced in cardiology than the USA in general. I'm sure the USA is the most advanced in many fields, but my Dallas doc said cardiology wasn't one of them.

It’s hit and miss, a dice throw of what hospital, doctor, technology, insurance company, plan, state, (country) etc. one is fortunate or unfortunate to find themselves.

I’m no fan of a system like that. I have my own experience with cardiology, ENT and spinal/pain specialists that would make one swear off all medical treatment in any form at this point. Particularly poverty level folk are almost as medically vulnerable as when Medicare and Medicare were first introduced.

I can say the decline in services around Pennsylvania can’t be ignored these past six years.
A crap shoot, indeed.

Plus, I was in Philadelphia, so I could go to "student health services" at the Penn Hospital, which was right around the corner from my dorm. Pennsylvania being the diverse place that it is (the "Philadelphia in the east and Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle" cliché is not far from the mark), I can imagine that treatment is very different if you are in Pittsburgh or Latrobe.

ain’t what it used to be. We’ve got a load of far- right maga state reps that can’t wait until Steve Miller and ilk finish all the jobs they’re working on.

It's my wife's birthday today, and she had to be back up in northern Germany today to sign the transfer of title of her mom's house (died on December 31 of last year). There was an unannounced traffic detour so she didn't get home until 11:00 at night (it's 1 AM now). I'm always terrified when she makes those trips up there and back. It's 3 hours each way, half Autobahn, half rural streets, and the people drive like maniacs here. But she is a big girl now (74, like I am ), and she knows how to take care of herself, and where her limitations are.

Also, it is 38° C (100°F) here and we have no air conditioning. We'll celebrate properly in a few days when her friends come for a quick birthday get together on Sunday.

When two are as close as you are even a brief separation can be stressful. I'm glad she made it home safely.

You both have so many blessings and we appreciate that you share them with us. All the best! Enjoy your celebration!!

1974


2024

Is from Flensburg. We found out about 10 yrs ago he never became an American citizen so we could become German citizens if we wanted to. My husband said if we were younger we would but not now. His brother got all the paperwork started with a lawyer because his son was moving there, son changed mind so did he.

It never hurts to have a plan B. Germany and the US both recognize dual citizenship. Just beware if you move—the USA does NOT recognize residence-based taxation, and the Germans will tax you, too. Consult an experienced accountant if you make the move and do not give up your US citizenship. Like any country, Germany says, “if you live here, you pay taxes here.” Like NO other country, the USA tells its citizens, no matter where you live, you are STILL going to pay taxes here. I got an accountant here who has asked the German government for a definitive ruling on my double taxation (incidentally forbidden under the German constitution). They asked for a ruling in 2012. They keep asking. Fourteen years later, we are still waiting.

was hoping it was going to be under $100 like some European countries I've heard of.

It costs more or less the same everywhere in Northern Europe. What I had costs thousands no matter where you have it done. How it is financed is what makes the difference. If you are a GERMAN citizen (or legal resident) and either working, destitute or over 65, THEN you are insured by law. If you fall through the cracks, like my wife, who is German, did from age 60 to 65, you either get their version of COBRA or hope to the Great Pumpkin that you don't get sick. At 65, her German version of Medicare kicked in, and she was covered again. By the way, at age 64, she did get a deadly (as in no one survives) for of cancer, and the insurance I was paying for covered it. She was that one in ten thousand that DID survive it. The treatment was brutal and she was in the hospital for a month, but that was ten years ago, so it was worth it.

No one here builds hospitals for free. Medical staff does not work on a volunteer basis. Manufacturers of medicine do not donate their products out of charity. It is FINANCED differently. It is PAID FOR differently. But it does cost a lot, and it does get paid for--just not always by the people being treated. As I am not a German citizen, and I work for an American employer. I am expected to pay full German taxes (AND American taxes, with minimal deductions), to the tune of about 73% total income tax, and get NOTHING for it in Germany. No health insurance, no pension, no NOTHING except just gimme yer money! Heil Honecker!

Different countries have different rules pertaining to foreigners needing care who have neither citizenship nor residence nor a job with an EU employer. Some are very "generous," but force their own taxpayers to foot the bill. Those people who got treatment while visiting Denmark or Finland and paid under $100 did so on the backs of Danish or Finnish taxpayers. It was NOT free. Germany does not force its own taxpayers to pay for the health care of those who are passing through and need treatment. They expect those people to pay up, and submit the bills to their own insurance in their own countries. They do not feel that visitors have the right to freeload on the back of German taxpayers. I can't say that I blame them, but I pay six figures in taxes to the German government per year and get NOTHING in return. I don't find that fair, either.

I can't see a US politician campaigning on implementing that here.

I'm sure that that price has doubled since then.

That just reinforces my impression that I got off easy!

That is the overriding plus!! The clinic is a well-known cardiac clinic, but even so, if someone is too far gone by the time they get there, they do not leave still breathing.

Common sense still plays a role, too. I knew a guy in Dallas who was told he had serious arterial blockage and needed it treated immediately. He said he had a weekend of hunting with some friends planned and would check in at the hospital first thing Monday. Only trouble was, he had a fatal stroke first thing Saturday. Some guys think they can put Mother Nature on hold. I am not one of them.

My wife, one night around 11:30 PM, experienced dreadful chest pain. To myself, this is beyond it will be alright in the morning.
Ran a few red lights, but got her into a wheel chair at the emergency room within minutes.
An hour and a half later, I was brought to her room. The attending described her dissected ascending aorta as ruptured and in need of immediate surgery. The surgeon was on his way.
When he arrived he said he would do all that he could to extend her life, but there were no guarantees.
Statistically, there are 46 to 48k deaths annually and only 250 surgeries.
Most rural communities have traumatic care too far away. Rarely are there trained surgeons for these complications.
They removed her frozen heart, repaired a valve, replaced 4 inches of her aorta and sent her to the ICU in 6 hours.
Luckily, her surgeon was well trained to the point he was a teacher of thoracic surgeries.
My wife is now famous as a rare survivor of this calamity and her medical community jumps funny to keep her going.
She turns 80 this August.
Glad she didn't sleep this one off or she would have waked up dead.

My wife seems to have escaped cardiac issues (so far!!). However, ten years ago, her gynecologist did discover three small spots on a routine uterine exam. The gynocologist said they were probably nothing, but since she had had full blown breast cancer 15 years before, they would do biopsies “just in case.” Two of the three were indeed nothing, but the third one was “the murderer,” a deadly form of uterine/ovarian cancer that is silent, fast-spreading, and always fatal because it is never discovered until it is too late. She wss sent to a specialized women’s clinic here in Düsseldorf.

The oncologist said it was just about the worst news she could get EXCEPT that he had NEVER seen the Murderer caught this early. He booked her for surgery right away, circumventing rules for patients of her secoond class insurance (i.e. hurry up and wait). They took 84 biopsies (!!!!) and all 84 came back negative. The surgeon was amazed. For the first time in 30 years of treating this cancer, he was telling my wife the she probably was going to survive. It was a brutal six hour operation but he saw no spreading at all. For the first time, he was telling her how lucky she was instead of how much time she had left. That one in ten thousand.

Still making coffee in the morning, and enjoying it.

When all the complicated stuff has boiled off.

I sort of envisage something similar for us although I still work full time in 2-5 countries a week. I don’t know how I am going to engineer a slowdown. We are 74, and men in my family tend not to make it to age 80.

Women in my wife’s family, on the other hand tend to get cancer twice, beat it twice, and sail on past 90 like it was nothing. If I beat my odds, at least, I’ll probably have some company.

Station of the USPS in Boston. We vacationed south of there in a small beach town.
One of his postal deliverers vacationed nearby. He tried to keep from retiring as his doctors told him not to slow down or he would die.
Retirement was forced on him and without his daily chores he ran out of steam at the end of summer. 1960's.
Never forgot to keep moving.
We are heading to Boston to cruise with friends on the 4th. Pushing to keep my wife on the go as it is a walking city. Our stop in NYC will require a few jaunts.
Hopefully they will be a lot cooler than our current heat index over 100°F.
Enjoy your summer on the Cape if you make it.

We always land in Boston and spend the night before driving out to the Cape the next day. Covid had devastated Downtown, and we hope it is starting to come back. If not, the Quincy Market and the North End are still full of life. But our main destination is the Outer Cape. We just want to take it easy, period.

We have a couple of days in the Seaport.
Going to spend a few hours in the Public Library to smell old books.
Expect a lot of tourists on 4th, but probably not in an old chair reading a few passages from something pulled off a shelf. Contemplation while looking at the interior architecture will be a satisfactory escape.

All medical and all pharma in a rolling 12 month period costs around $350-400 usd combined, max, for the entire 12 months.

Sweden’s taxpayers are fine with footing the bill for themselves, but no country’s medical system can financially survive a deluge of “medical tourists,” who travel there specifically to get cost-free (to them) medical care. And nor should it. Sweden’s residents are heavily taxed, not just “the rich.” Among some of the advantages of that is that with the money that comes in, the government picks up the bill for most treatment and medicine. It may be offered at little or no charge to the patient, but it is not free. It is just financed differently. I promise you that if you want to order a construction firm to build you a hospital somewhere, and hire dozens or hundreds of doctors and nurses, no one will do it “for free.” Even in Sweden, construction workers, nurses and doctors need to eat, buy clothing and pay rent.

If the USA is EVER going to step away from our haphazard system of impoverishing many people who need serious medical care, it will have to shift the cost away from those receiving the care to the general population, i.e. higher taxes. Since that is usually a death sentence to the candidacy of anyone running for national office in the USA, it will be the skillful politician indeed who can come up with a formula to sell THAT to a majority of voters. For all that America has suffered under the Republicans, we have yet to have our Ådalen ‘31.

Last edited Fri Jun 26, 2026, 02:19 AM - Edit history (1)

medical tourist. I know of no country that allows that.

And of course, as you were talking about fees you paid, that is what I referred to by 'free' or basically (or almost free). Obviously the state (as in government) picks up the vast part of the tab, and our taxes we pay here helps fund that.

But this was many years ago. A friend of mine was Canada’s ambassador to the USA. His posting there ended when Bill Clinton left office, so you know how long ago that was.

The max-tax rate here in Germany is 47% (42% plus “solidarity supplement” of 5%), but it kicks in at a very low level—under €100,000 per year. Plus the MWSt (MOMS to you) is 19%. As opposed to many neighboring countries, cash is still king in Germany, so lots of small stuff flies under the radar here, and keeps the popular economy (not talking about Siemens or Volkswagen) humming. Credit card fraud is rampant here, so small shops and vendors still prefer cash.

I never know what’s going on “in there,” but I try not to leave too much to chance.

I drove to a hospital (kranken haus) in Cochem. Doctor Wolf examined me and ordered an X-Ray.

He then numbed the finger, set it, and ordered a second X-Ray to make sure it was done correctly.

He put on a splint, gave me some pain pills, and advised me not to drive (I drove to Italy with no problem). The bill was 125 Euro, about $150 at the time.

Also been to the ER in London. There was no charge. I offered to pay something, but was advised they didn’t have an office that collected money.

On the other hand, foreign tourists visiting the US who develop appendicitis, leave the hospital after surgery with a $30,000 bill.

Last edited Fri Jun 26, 2026, 01:33 AM - Edit history (1)

German rates for treatment are nothing like in the USA. For what you paid in in Germany, a German’s insurance would have picked up the bill, but it wouldn’t have been any different—probably like my procedure. Much dental work in Germany is not covered by standard insurance, and there is a dentistry clinic in Budapest, Hungary that advertises daily on German TV how many thousands you can save by going there to have your dental work done, even including room and board for the length of your stay (!!).

I have never had any medical treatment done in the UK, but it sounds like their NHS does not charge patients for care, which means their taxpayers pick up the bill for their complete health system. That means that British taxpayers also pick up the bill for visitors who need unexpected treatment. As long as there is no abuse, or “medical tourism,” I’m sure the NHS can absorb the cost without going bust.

The USA is notorious for being the opposite. This is no secret and Germany has many package deals of health insurance for travelers and vacationers. Some friends ours got such a package for their son when he went for a high school year abroad in California. One day, he collapsed and was taken to the ER, where, after a few days, he was finally diagnosed with a rare heart cancer. They stabilized him as best they could so he could return to Germany. The bill was $50,000. The parents’ vacationer’s insurance that they had bought for him covered the whole thing. They didn’t want to, but this is a billion dollar/euro business in Germany, and refusing a $50,000 dollar medical invoice and making national headlines in the process could have killed their whole business. They paid.

My wife used to buy those things when she traveled to the USA with our daughters while they were still German residents. She hasn’t bought them lately, but she should. There is a huge gap in what Blue Cross says they cover (much) and what they really cover (almost nothing).

It will be 11 years for me July 1st.
My wife came on a work visa, I came on her coattails, Now we have permanent visas.
Ours is the statutory insurance. I was on hers for a while as a dependent. Then on my ownwhen I claimed social security. Then she was on mine as a dependent until her German pension kicked in and now her social security.
I've been paying less than Medicare part B and she is now a bit above that because of the German pension.

When hospitalized I have only been charged for my hospital stays. $10 per day. My cochlear implant $50, I did have to pay $135 for some therapy. Another 5 nights for gallstones and gallbladder surgery. My wife just had a breast cancer lump removed and radiation therapy. 3 days for the lumpectomy, $30. Radiation covered. Yes there have been some other expenses. But what a difference.

My employer is an American entity, and thus everything is paid there: salary, health insurance (such as it is), Social Security. In Germany, they look at my US taxes paid, say that’s nice, and demand money, namely full boat: 47%. Period.i was invited to apply for “Privat” insurance, and HUK Coburg quoted me €2500 a month, or €30,000 a year. And that was in 2011 at age 59! What would the quote be now, at age 74? €50,000 if I’m lucky? Since my wife was unemployed for five years, but married to someone who wasn’t, she was left with no German health insurance at all, which is why I sprang in there for her. The system here does have holes, and she had fallen into one for five years.

Rather than private insurance because costs go up with age. TK costs more when young and stays mostly level with around a 900 euro cap.
Our Steuerberater has convinced the Finanzamt that our income is pension and we get a slight break on tax. This year may be a stretch since we had to bring money over for the equity payment for a flat.
Now we wsit for them and then see how big a bite Uncle Sam will take.
Glad your heart procedure went well.

we were able to keep her on our insurance, plus we paid for the school insurance because she was overseas and we figured one or the other should kick in. One thing we noticed was that sometimes she'd get bills, we'd help her pay them, and then she would get reimbursed. She commented that it was very nice using their pharmacies - she started her program during Covid, and they did the tests inexpensively (and results quickly) so she could fly home for breaks. It really was all much cheaper and seamless than we expected.

Now she lives/works in NYC and was a proud voter for Mamdani. She isn't scared of the word "socialism" after living in France.

Covid tests started out at €75, but quickly dropped in price. Tesults in 24 hours. Vaccinations were covered by the government—an atypically wise move, as it saved them billions in health care costs.

My French friends had a different experience with the French socialists, as they are not fine art dealers. They and/or their employers were terrorized by the squads sent out to extract fines from shop owners. Their pretexts for the fines were sometimes very creative. I know one shop whose books and taxes were so immaculate that they gave him a €1500 fine for having “software that was too slow.” When he went to pay it, the inspector rolled his eyes, apologized, and said it was not in his power to erase it, but he was able to reduce it by a third. Another shop a couple of hundred meters away had the owner arrested because it was taking too long to examine his books. He had a second residence in Belgium, so he was a flight risk. His staff, whom he always treated fairly, closed the shop and went on strike, sitting on the street in frint of it with signs not exactly full of praise for the socialist government. The media was starting to take notice, so they let him out in short order. During that era, I had to empty my pockets multiple times at the airport to prove I had no more than 2000 francs in cash—about $300–with me. The biggest critics of the French socialists were the French, themselves. No one suffered more under their rule than their own people, a theme I heard repeated in Pre-1989 Poland, East Berlin and Castro’s Cuba the one time I was allowed to go out on my own (as a government guest, I was accompanied by their officials for the rest of the time).

My older daughter lives under the Iron Fist of a socialist country in Europe. Her total bill for pregnancy delivery, and having a nurse and midwife do home visits weekly for a year (my granddaughter is perfectly healthy) was $26. More, they will pay my daughter to get her PhD. My daughter, her husband, and my 20-month old granddaughter are visiting now, and I am trying to convince them to leave the hell on earth of a government that cares about citizens' health and education, and does not have a reflecting pool with peeling paint.

When Albania ditched it, I wasn’t aware of any left. Social democracies, yes, several, but socialist? As in State ownership, secret police, media monopoly, ruling elite? Where is that? They were pretty much dismantled by their own people years ago.

By the way, if she is married to a native who is working, I’m sure they DO get all the subsidized benefits. I have a daughter living in Germany who has German citizenship, as do her two daughters.

In this oppressive heat. I’m just back from southern France and the heat was horrendous. Now it’s over southeastern England and it’s simply atrocious. I can’t wait until it breaks.
Happy to hear you’re on the mend.
My first trip to the hospital here in England, I had a panic when I got home because I forgot to pay. My partner thought I was insane; I had to explain co-pays and bills to him. Once I get my new visa (which comes with a hefty NHS surcharge for each year of the visa, plus I also pay National Insurance), I’ll be purchasing a private policy as well just in case. I’m only 48 but don’t fancy waiting a year if I need something minor like a knee replacement. Running does bad things to my joints these days.
For all the big stuff, the NHS is brilliant and specialists in London are top notch.
I’m glad your bills didn’t cause another cardiac episode!