K & R

Many Russian speakers in Ukraine also want independence from Russia. Many see Ukraine as similar to places like Romania where there were puppet dictators for a long time and feel this was bound to happen sooner or later.

that what the democratic election process is for. Many here in the US wanted Bush out of office but we didn't overthrow the government. We fought him in the arena of ideas and won an election.

at the end of May set up by the interim government, right?

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 06:21 PM - Edit history (1)

I was for an election before the violent overthrow of the country by Right Sector and Svoboda/Fatherland Party....there is no way the two candidates offered for that proposed election would be suitable for the people of East Ukraine. If they have their own country they can live in peace as can the West Ukraine. No one wants to be dominated and killed by fascists and then given shit choices on candidates the fascist approve. I am for separation. You tell me how you seriously think those ordinary workers will just get back in the mines and send their money to Kiev? It isn't going to happen. Two things can happen now...civil war with lots of killing....or separation. I'm for the latter.

The entire country votes per the Ukrainian constitution. Not just the parts that have been taken over by unelected and self selected leaders. Who elected them? I have asked many times and you refuse to answer or are you scared to admit they are not elected and just took over by force unlike the elected Rada appointing an interim president until this months election which you now oppose.

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 07:14 PM - Edit history (1)

When the US was begun the people that became the founding fathers also struck out on their own as leaders before they were elected. That's how countries are born. They rebelled against the people who were repressing them.

What you seem to want for these people is for them to stay with the folks who are now outright killing them. It isn't gonna work out that way. Separation is now the best answer. It's 2014 do you seriously expect these people to be subjugated to neo-nazi murderers?

so welcome to ignore.

Maybe you should take a little bit of a break. That really was not called for and you should apologize.

here during the Bush years? It would have saved thousands of lives for one thing, and considering most of the world was opposed to his lying invasion of Iraq, it most likely would have been very popular around the world.

Why did Ukraine not hold an election early, as proposed at the time where EVERYONE could have voted and avoided all the tragic deaths now occurring there? This was PREDICTABLE and PREDICTED since a vast majority of the people in Ukraine had NO SAY in the current government, now sending out the military to 'crush' as they claim, any dissent?

Why would the US support a coup in any Democracy? Why did McCain and Murphy entertain the leaders of the Neo Nazi Party?

Do you KNOW what these thugs are saying about Obama on the Social Media btw? These are who we are supporting over there? What some of them are saying about Obama is unprintable. But hey, let's do it again, we did in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya, in Syria and elsewhere, years of supporting Right Wing Dictators in Latin America.

This time the World Media recognizes what is going on there and we are losing the propaganda war, which I wish would have happened in Iraq. A whole lot of human beings would be alive today.

When the majority of the people in the world support your 'latest enemy' (why do we have so many enemies btw?) maybe you should start asking yourself if maybe it's YOU!

It did in Egypt and I did not support that. In Ukraine the democratically elected Rada installed a caretaker president for a few months until new democratic elections could be held. Even the former presidents own Party of Regions representatives voted to replace him after he left the country. Much more democratic then in the East where any person can take over and just install himself as the new leader after holding hostage the elected officials. Do you agree with that?

Rada who fulfilled their duties unlike the President who fled the country

Good lord. There were protests and the President resigned.

people. Now the people are rising up against the unelected coup government which is no surprise. All they had to do was wait a few months for an election, instead they took to the streets violently with the intention of toppling the president.

Anyone who supports that method of changing the government in a democracy and yet claims to be FOR democracy, is a hypocrite with an agenda imho.

There has been a massacre in Odessa, dozens of people killed across the country, all as a result of that coup in Kiev. It is SHAMEFUL to see anyone trying to defend it. Right Wing Nationalists were running that show. I want no part in supporting such people.

The Ukraine Rada was democratically elected, no? They are more democratically elected than the thugs that just appointed themselves without even a vote of the people and need masked armed guards around them. Even the former presidents own Party of Regions voted to remove him after he left the country. That would be like the Democrats in Congress, our elected representatives voting to remove President Obama. Thank goodness that will never happen here as he is not fleeing the country and not able to carry out his constitutional duties.

Do you support the democratic presidential elections called by the interim government this month? A simple question I can not get an answer from some on your side of the issue.

Who elected him?
Separatist leader and self-appointed "Donetsk People's Republic" governor Denis Pushilin

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/465505070432661505/photo/1


Democratically elected?

And why is THAT govt sending out its military to kill its own people? That is the definition of an unpopular coup.

And what is Blackwater doing in Ukraine? Any idea who hired them? Seems EVERYONE in the world knows but the American people where their tax dollars are going.

It selected a person to act as head of state until elections could be held after the previous head of state absconded.

The previous head of state sent out police to kill his own people, even though he had won an election, so you are on the usual shaky ground there --- if use of lethal force de-legitimizes one, it de-legitimizes both, and you have no ground from which to proclaim the legitimacy of the previous regime.

The idea that a government in place cannot avail itself of force against secession and rebellion is, of course, nonesense. Any government in place has a perfect right to use force in defense of the integrity of its territory and the execution of its laws and the upholding of its peace. One may, on various grounds, wish for some particular government to fail or to succeed in such efforts, but that is a different question. Nor does a government, any more than do secessionists or rebels, have a right to succeed in such an effort. But all have the right to try....

elected the president of Ukraine. The parliament was elected BEFORE the coup.

Now we see a majority of people outraged, enough to risk being killed by their own military, by that coup.

An election WAS A CHOICE. A small fraction of Ukraine's population executed a coup. Why were they afraid of an election?

After the coup, the entire government became unelected.

The rest of this boiler-plate is not worth bothering with.

having been elected. I understand, it's hard to defend a coup in a democracy especially when you are living in a democracy yourself, where you would NEVER condone such a thing.

I pointed out after the coup, that Parliament, assuming they willingly went along with it, and we don't know that amidst reports that some of them were threatened etc., is no longer 'elected'. The entire Government is unelected now.

Then I asked why Blackwater is in Ukraine. Don't you think that is a serious question for the American people? That Mercenary organization was guilty of the most horrendous crimes in Iraq, murder, rape, even abuse of children. I assume they are not there on OUR BEHALF, being paid with OUR TAX DOLLARS. No DEMOCRAT could possibly condone that without losing ALL credibility they ever had.

So since it is too outrageous to assume the US Govt has anything to do with them being there, then WHO are they working for?

'Boiler plate'? Really? If I were the only one asking these questions you might have a point. But all over the country people are asking and waiting for answers.

Having answered the question, I went on to point out other weaknesses in your position.

You have made no attempt to answer those points, but rather trot out an inflammatory claim, for which there is no evidence, only double hearsay: a news report which amounts to a claim that someone heard someone had said something, which the body supposed to have said the thing denies it said. So your pretense that is a grave and serious question is nothing but smoke and vapor.

YOUR position I'm afraid, is based on 'hearsay'. You appear to be defending a coup in a democracy. That is not a strong position to take while otoh, claiming to support Democracy.

I pointed out, and I believe if a similar situation occurred here, this would be a very strong position to take, as we Democrats would, that any government resulting from that Coup, is no longer elected. That appears to be the view of what is seeming to be a huge number of people in Ukraine and is perfectly understandable to anyone living in any Democracy. IF those pre-Coup elected officials are complicit in some of the actions of that unelected government, such as sending out the military to 'crush' and kill as has now happened, their own people, just imagine a similar situation HERE.

I want to know why Blackwater is in Ukraine. We KNOW that wherever they show up, people DIE. So perhaps you have more information on that subject, as I'm sure it is going to raise enormous questions over the next few months.

Two government employ lethal force to crush dissent. You consider that, in one instance, this shows that government is illegitimate, while in the other, you consider it does not, and in fact, you continue to state that government is the legitimate government. It sounds rather like people maintaining the K.M.T. on Taiwan were the real government of China, and made no more sense in a rightist politician's mouth then than it does in your's today.

There is nothing illegitimate about a revolutionary government, as you seem to imagine. It is fairly hard to trace back the history of governments in the world today very far before find yourself in a revolution, with most of the exceptions being instances where a foreign power imposed a government.

In Ukraine, the previous president made a bid to crush dissent by force, lost, and fled. This does not in an y way discredit the elected Parliament, which appointed a care-taker to handle affairs of state until an election could be held. A foreign power then seized a portion of the country by force, and secured a secessionist movement in another portion of it, with the intent of further annexation. These are the facts of the matter, they are not statements of opinion.

"Reality is that which, when you cease to believe in it, continues to exist."

it is the result of an election'. Now you say 'there is nothing illegitimate about a revolutionary government'. If it was elected as you claim, then it is NOT a 'revolutionary government'. It is a democratically elected government, no?

But if you are now claiming it is NOT that legitimate, non-revolutionary elected government you first claimed, but a Revolutionary Govt, then we are in agreement.

So which is it, what I claim it to be, unelected, part of the coup. Or as you first claimed, elected, not part of any illegitimate coup?

Now you seem to oppose 'crushing dissent by force', and yet you don't. ONLY when it suits you. I object to ANY Govt crushing dissent by force, but that is what you are now supporting. And with the MILITARY!

You are all over the place I'm sorry to say.

But regardless of all of this, why is the US involved in this? I was told a while ago that we were NOT. Now the same people are DEFENDING our 'right' to be there. I see zero reason for our involvement in Europe's affairs. We have our own very much unattended affairs right here and we are all over the world minding everyone else's business, and making things WORSE for most of them, see Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lybia eg ... maybe we should leave these things to people with a record of IMPROVING things where they choose to intervene.

I have said many times that all sides have a right to fight, but none have a right to succeed.

It is a fact that Yanukovich tried to suppress dissent by force; he has as much right to as any government does. He failed. Rather than serving to assert his legitimacy and cow opposition, he convinced people he had no legitimacy, that he had lost 'the Mandate of Heaven' so to speak. He fled, and what remained of government took steps to fill the vacuum. It is, to my mind, a legitimate exercise of legitimate authority. But even if it were the result of full-blown revolution, the authorities established by the revolution would have the same claim to legitimacy as any other government in being. Whether I agree with it, with its platform and views, is immaterial; it exists, and it governs, it is the government.

The current government in Kiev is making an attempt to use force to suppress secession, secession which is the stalking horse for a foreign power's attempt to annex portions of Ukraine. It may well fail in this attempt, but it has every right to make it. It is nonesense to try and claim that the simple fact of its having made resort to force demonstrates that it is illegitimate, to state that it does not have the same right as every government to use force to defend its territorial integrity.

I have only two strong views in all this.

I am opposed to Russia annexing the eastern portions of Ukraine; I think opening up the map of Europe by force is fraught with potential peril.

I am opposed to the flat distortions and outright lies being peddled by some who support Russia's endeavopr to annex portions of Ukraine.

crackdown would have been brutal and swift. By our standards, Yanukovich's reaction to the rioting in the streets was mild and ineffective and yet he was constantly criticized by the Western nations for even that, which is rather hypocritical considering what was done to peaceful protesters here eg.

You are right in that he did have the right to react with force, but he failed to do that no doubt fearing reprisals from the West.

Those who were the cause of the riots, including Right Wing Nationalists, were a small fraction of the population of Ukraine and now we are seeing how the rest of the country feels about their legitimacy.

You are incorrect that any of the regions opposing the Kiev government want annexation to Russia. They have been clear from the beginning that they want autonomy for Ukraine, from both the WEST and the EAST. You need to listen to the PEOPLE.

But the stupidity of the actions of the Kiev government, the draconian law they started out with, then sending in the military to 'crush' dissent, frightened people so badly they had a legitimate reason to decide their own fate.

IF they succeed, as it looks like they will as the opposition to the Kiev govt spreads further and further, they will have the same right you claim the Kiev coup govt had simply because they succeeded.

The stupidity of the Kiev govt's actions however, may end up driving the people in the southeast towards Russia rather than accomplishing the opposite. Now that so many have been killed, it is going to be very hard to go back.

It's possible that the country will split into two autonomous nations and if that is what the people want, it is their right to fight for it.

Our business is to stop interfering in all these conflicts as we seem to only make things worse.

The use of force by Yanukovyk's riot police greatly exceeded anything displayed in the United States, at least in the modern era. If you want to go back to labor disputes in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, you can find parallels. Police here greatly mistreat protesters, but no police actually shot into the crowds at Occupy encampments, or at the NATO protests here in Chicago. The idea Yanukovych refrained from violence for fear of western intervention is, to put it bluntly, laughable nonesense. He did not refrain, and Western intervention was never a possibility, just as it remains no possibility today.

Whether people in the east of Ukraine want annexation is immaterial: annexation by Russia will most likely occur, and annexation has been Russia's intention throughout. The armed men who spear-head the secessionist rising there are agents of Russia, actually Russian operatives in many cases, and what the people of the region want concerns them not the slightest. They are doing the job they were sent to do; creating conditions in which annexation by Russia is a practical possibility.

In the face of this, denouncing U.S. intervention is a piece of low comedy.

what it is.

Several representatives of our government were in Ukraine months before the riots and violence that led to the removal of a democratically elected president. They were photographed with the leader of the Right Wing Nationalist Party/Neo Nazis. See McCain and Murphy, both US Senators. Nuland from the State Dept was taped planning the aftermath of what HAD NOT YET HAPPENED. Police were attacked and beaten when they were sent out to stop the violence. It is grossly hypocritical for anyone in this country to try to defend the attacks on the police while acting OUTRAGED at OWS for simply protesting peacefully.

There was a coup in Ukraine. The installed 'leader' is the same person Nuland 'wanted' in that position.

Just what were all these US Senators and State Dept. officials doing getting involved in that country's internal affairs? Who benefits from our interference in Ukraine? Who benefited from our interference in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya, in Syria, in Somalia? Someone benefits, but it sure isn't the American people or any of the people of any of those countries we seem to always be involved in as if we had money to throw away.

Coup d'etats always end up violently. Elections are what democracies do to remove unpopular governments. I am a supporter of democracy. Someone was in a hurry for some reason and did not trust that an election would give them 'our guy' to quote Nuland. And it appears looking at the huge opposition to Kiev right now, they were correct.

Wherever Nuland/Kagan Family goes...Eric Prince is there either before them guiding them or in their footprints cleaning up.

We who followed Iraq/Afthanstan, Iran, Libya, Syria from 9/11 on ...are not idiots. The PNAC PLAN is their Bible Book.....it was declared and followed to the letter with a few hiccups...but, they persevere in their agenda.

Why would Eric Prince's Company of Mercenaries raking in the Big Bucks need to keep changing their name if there was any legitimacy to their activities. It's to protect them when and if (doubt able) they are ever caught...and his "corporations" can get off like the Wall Street Crowd and Banks did. Pay a fine and "Carry On." It's the Playbook of the New America!

What proof do I have there is not a ninja stalking me this very minute?

the Kagan's are up to because you've been here as long or longer than I have so you know
what we all know who have been here with you.

And as far as "Ninja's stalking me"....you well know that I have no use for those types of fantasies.

Being asked for disproof of something no evidence of is in hand is pretty much a new one for me; it is not how the thing usually is done.

one side had democratic elections and the other side did not. The side that did called for a new Ukraine Presidential election on May 25.

Do you support this election, all I have asked so far are too scared to answer.

the Bush years. Frankly I find it appalling and shameful. Blackwater! The word alone should send chills through any decent human being and even a hint of their presence there should immediately demand an investigation. But as you can see, dismissal is the only answer, until I suppose, the talking points are ready.

still seated that was elected democratically replaced the President after he fled the country during the night. That"s right the DEMOCRATICALLY elected parliament. The parliament was not dissolved unless you are talking about 2007 when the former President did this.

There is a system to remove elected officials in Democracies, which does NOT include, to my knowledge, any provision for a coup.

IF they are complicit therefore in what amounts to treason in any democracy, their pre-coup election is not relevant. That isn't going to fly, to try to claim that pre-coup democracy still applies. Of course it doesn't.

representatives in democratic elections. The Rada including the former presidents own party voted to remove him when he fled the country in the middle of the night leaving no President. The Rada chose an Interim President and called for national Presidential elections on 25 May.

ONCE AGAIN CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION

Surely these men were not Blackwater – simply because such a company does not exist anymore. It has changed its name twice in recent years and is now called Academi and they are a private company so the government of Ukraine can hire them if they want.

Still to scared to answer my question I see. OK

smell as badly as they ever did. War Criminals who have been caught murdering people changing their name? They are still the same murderous mercenaries they always were.

I have as much proof of their presence there as you do that the Kiev Govt are the 'good guys' in all of this. That truly IS a stretch to say the least.

Look, people had access to what went on starting last year. If you want to support the Coup, it would be better to stop trying to deny some of the facts that are irrefutable.

Blackwater in Ukraine. Hillary said our new way of fighting wars now is to use 'proxy armies'. She was very proud of that. I assumed she meant how they did it in Libya and in Syria, using Al Queda terrorists eg, and outside military, from Bahrain and from Qatar eg. I forgot about all the mercenaries we used and are still using in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am pleasantly surprised though at how informed people are about all this now, unlike back in 2003 when we could not have imagined the evil Bush et al were capable of.

What would their Mission Statement be when they sign on the dotted line to hire these Thugs to come into Ukraine?

would be one of the Ukrainian oligarchs may have hired them for security. My assumption would be the government did not hire them.

There are a lot of security guards in Eastern Europe.

perhaps more, wants nothing to do with those who have caused so much violence and tragedy in their country now.

I agree with the previous posters, the country will most likely split, as others have. You cannot force a coup on people who you have then immediately mistreated. The stupidity of the Kiev Govt regarding the Eastern part of the country, was simply stunning. They DROVE them to want to determine their own destinies. Sending the military out against your own people delegitimizes your government completely.

There is no way now to hold an election anyone would trust or even participate in other than the minority that supported this travesty in the first place.

"the US is backing and financing extremely violent right wing nationalist fascists"

Any questions?

Is that actually surprising to anyone? Because, studying history, it's what we do.

After all, John Foster and Allen Dulles did drop their Nazi clientele just before the war started, and they didn't officially pick them up again until after the war. So there's that.

There's lots of spectacular theater to accompany those intentions though.

Given that the Ukraine application to NATO was rejected. And this is dated 2008 by the way.

your simply spinning wheels here...I'm glad you can read cables too as you point out..other may have missed this very important piece of information that highlights we knew what would probably happen. The cable also highlights that Russia warned us and we ignored it. Now look at what is happening. All of Russia's chess moves were after the US moved first. I'm sure you've seen the Nuland videos? The cable adds more proof to the fact we fomented this...and now look at what is happening. Wake up...your view on Russia is possibly clouding your view on fascism and our financing of fascist massacres.

Was rejected. If we had accepted it, you would have a point. The cable itself, and facts, counter what you say

As well as The New Russia talk and the end of ussr wasa historic mistake.

Facts are pesky, but don't expect them to penetrate.

it's not relevant whether anyone joined NATO.What is relevant and what the post is about is we knew what would most likely happen...yet we still chose to do it.

No they did not, precisely for those reasons.

Go peddle fantasy somewhere else

that Lavrov's fears (as recognized in the cable) and portrayed to the US government were contingent upon Ukraine joining NATO, is that correct? Because the cable points out he had concerns about a spilt and civil war as well as the rise of fascists.

Excerpt here:

Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine
Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears
unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would
seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us
that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions
in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the
ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a
major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war.

Obviously if the country resorts to civil war (as it is doing and he predicted it would) then he and the US analysts reading the cable, would be aware that it probably would not be a part of NATO. Your point is a touch ridiculous.

Which they did not. Their application was rejected.

You can't pick an old cable, on a different subject, and call it a duck.

Fail.

with an alternate reality from the Wikileaks post. F Feel free. A government record does not include time limits. Any good analyst will tell you that they use all relevant sources. There seems to be a strong effort at DU to deny the cables importance. It's unfortunate as this site used to be leading the charge against war in Iraq.....what the fuck happened to it? It turned into a boring combined copy of "People" magazine and "Readers Digest".....ah I must be getting old and not realizing it.

Sorry. Deal with it. Or not.

2008 happened. It doesn't matter that our government supports neo-nazis killing their fellow citizens, as long as the president has a D in front of his name.

People are being burned alive and tortured and our DU looks the other way and even has people defending the shit. The truth will win out.

IF THEY JOINED NATO.

And yes, that is well understood in all kinds of high circles, and it goes back to the great patriotic war (WW II for the rest of us) as well as the Napoleonic wars. Yes, memory in Europe is that long.

Choice quotes

you are making my case for me. What matters underneath it all is that they knew what could possibly come, as I stated in the OP. They fucking knew. It doesn't matter how old it is or what happened with NATO membership....what matters is that THEY KNEW. They decided to pursue it even after Lavrov warned them of possible consequences.

It is another example of misguided US policy reaping chaos in the world. Plain and simple. Sorry you refuse to acknowledge that.

I am confronting you with facts, some of them derived from a very long history, longer than the US actually. But if people do not know US History, I cannot expect them to know the very complex history of that region of the world.

What you are asking is isolationism, and not just isolation, but the worst kind of isolationism. That ain;t gonna happen.

In the same cable Lavrov admitted, remember he is talking for the Kremlin, admitted that there are LEGITIMATE INTERESTS that the West has, that includes the US.

Their fear, and that is from also from contemporary reporting, was the Ukraine, which applied to joining NATO, would be allowed to. That never happened, so stop peddling fantasies here. Yes, that whole cable's nexus IS FRACKING NATO!!!!

I'm a former US marine 1st battalion, 6th marines, 2nd mar div, 85-88- who believes sometimes it's actually right to help countries....that is how you promote good relations in the world. Get in help out...leave....and don't take any of their resources or use them for selfish reasons....just help out and get out.

I advocated at the Guardian weeks ago for the US to send in troops to help the children in Nigeria. I'm ok if the mission is a good one. Personally I prefer peace in all matters and using our brains instead of weapons. Your attributing things to me that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

If anything you've just once again helped me out...by stating that Lavrov himself was actually understanding and forthright enough to state that they understood the US had legitimate interests in the region. It actually paints Russia as more reasonable in negotiations than the US media, government and public are led to believe. Especially as we are playing around in their back yard.

is pure as freshly fallen snow.

I got news for ya, you did not learn foreign policy in the marines. And that which I pointed out, was also part of contemporary reporting by the AP and Reuters no less.

Some of us pay attention to this shit beyond crisis. If you want to expand your horizons, you need a few history classes a couple in International law are not a bad idea, and political science. And yes, stop believing that the Russians are nice and good and wonderful (because they are not) and the US is all evil, (again, that is not the case). Things are far more complex than that black and white thinking you got going there.

Those cables are standard crap, usually declassified at the 30 year point, some take fifty. And they are not that remarkable. Hell, I read the ones on Mexico and I started laughing hysterically, since they are really funny, if you know Mexican history. But it is the kind of crap that goes on around diplomatic corps around the world, There are equivalents of these cables in every nation of the world. You go ask why?

I do not expect you to take the advise. It is always simpler to peddle crap I heard in High School in Mexico City. The US is the big satan and the USSR is going to save us all.... same shit, different country... and a different name.

thanks for the strong dose of self effacing humility. Your ability to enlighten others is well noted. Our little side step debate has now become a bit off topic and far too circular to have any benefit for ourselves or others. Do me a favor and put me on ignore like you do everybody else.

and the background.

Not that I expect that.

I'm not sure why you're stating things that poster never even implied, but 'some of us' are capable of learning from the past, seeing what's happening now and putting 2+2 together. We did the same for Iraq and Libya.

"stop believing that the Russians are nice and good and wonderful (because they are not)" - is that ALL Russian people - normal human beings trying to exist in the same world as you and I? Do tell, what makes a whole nation of people evil and bad - is it the water?

Once again the United States are not the source of all evil, nor the Russians pure are driven snow. Incapable of nuance comes to mind here. Not that this surprises me at all. Same crap, different decade

and then continuing this over the email system, welcome to my ignore list.

As to ignore .......... thanks.

I don't see this as a 'gotcha' moment, although Wikileaks is eternally hopeful for that result.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

this Wikileaks cable was posted on the Guardian UK forums the night before last. There is discussion there that Julian Assange posted it himself. Considering the silence in the US media in regards to the atrocities being committed against people in East and Southern Ukraine it is highly relevant and important that people understand that........we knew. We fucking knew our actions would destabilize an entire country....that they would go to civil war...that many would probably die....and that fascists would probably come to power. We fucking knew.

But offering NATO membership is not a bad idea on its own. The cables simply reflect the Russian foreign minister's opinion. Which turned out to have some truth but Ukraine was already headed for destabilization anyways.

And a half-assed diplomat -which Putin is not- could have calmed the situation.

Unfortunately, the only tool Putin knows how to use is the hammer.

Oh, and as DuckHunter below points out, this cable is 6 years old.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 06:32 PM - Edit history (1)

That actually backs up my point. Do you seriously think that the President of the United States doesn't get full briefings on these cables before he gives Victoria Nuland the go ahead for destabilizing Ukraine? They knew what could go wrong and they decided it was worth it.

It is 2014 and video evidence is popping up everywhere that we are supporting fascists who are murdering their own citizens. Think about this.....it's 2014 video is everywhere pointing out the truth....the US has openly supported killers who are being caught on video suppressing and killing their own citizens. It's unprecedented in American history...and this time around everyone is watching it live.

If any American truly supports the United States they may want to think about how the US has possibly made the greatest geo-political blunder in it's history....one even greater than Iraq. We have exposed ourselves as a nation that is dangerous to world peace...and the lid can't be easily put back on the box.....not when it's filled with right wing neo-nazi fascists. We have also plunged Europe into a crisis and completely wrecked 15 years of peaceful progress with Russia. It is pure stupidity.

Lavrov stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region. But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors.

It's well reported that the new Ukrainian government has Right Sector and Svoboda in it. It's well reported that we are funding the Ukranian government and even providing them direct money for their "news" outlets.

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/eus-acceptance-ukraines-radical-svoboda-party-shameful-301110
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/uploads/presentations/5f81a4bc0a28a51b265f8aecfc666685e961eb71.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

The next link is to a Washington based article highlighting how the US is now providing additional financing to the new Kiev government and media which blamed the deaths of the people who were burned alive inside the building in Odessa on....get this....themselves.

http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine

And here's what Washington is paying that media money for. The Kiev post is reporting that the people burned themselves alive instead of blaming the pro nazi's that the new coup government is partly comprised of.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
Headline at link: Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)


We paid these guys to report that the people burned themselves alive....even though there is overwhelming video evidence to show that they were killed by the people throwing molotov's outside the building....and the US media is also completely quiet on this issue. It's disgusting and not what America should stand for. Let me show you what we paid for:

Warning graphic content: Link includes pictures of corpses: Pictures of elderly women and pensioners burned alive in Odessa government building fire. The violent youth who threw the molotov cocktails at them are being supported financially by the United States.

http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

For those that don't want to look at these pictures, I will describe a couple....one is of a woman missing her pants....she was most likely raped before she was killed. Some are elderly women and men...(not exactly the "terrorist" image being projected in the US media) and one that is particularly disturbing is the photo of the lady who was just the cleaning lady for the building (caught in the wrong place at the wrong time that day)....she was pregnant, as shown by her exposed belly.... and she has been strangled. There is another video I have seen that shows the room she died in with her dying screams being emanated from the window while radicals out front chant for her to die.

These are absolutely tragic and disturbing images....that are getting no press because we choose to fund the Kiev media organizations that suppress these peoples deaths....once again I do recommend before clicking that people understand they are photos of corpses.

As the saying goes, "you dance with the one who brought you to the dance"....time for the US government to own the problem.

Fiery Chaos in Odessa: 42 Perish After Ukrainians Launch Waco-Like Assault

AlterNet / By Nicolas J.S. Davies

The group behind the clashes is Right Sector, the strike force of the U.S.-backed coup that overthrew Ukraine's government.

May 5, 2014

The death toll in Odessa stands at 42 people killed, most of them burned to death or suffocated by smoke inhalation in the inferno at the Trade Unions House. There is no dispute over who were the victims and who were their killers. The victims were pro-Russian protesters who had occupied the building. The attackers who set fire to it with petrol bombs were members of Right Sector, the ultra-Nationalist strike force of the U.S.-backed coup that overthrew the elected government of Ukraine in February.

Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh told Newsweek on March 19th that the Western-backed coup regime in Kiev has organized Right Sector militia members into new paramilitary forces for a "war" to "cleanse the country" of pro-Russian protesters. So it is not clear whether the militiamen responsible for the mass murder in Odessa were in fact newly recruited Ukrainian "National Guard" troops or just "civilian" Right Sector thugs, nor whether they were locals from Odessa or forces sent in from Kiev, Lviv or elsewhere in Western Ukraine.

For Americans, a more serious question hangs over Ukraine's Waco in Odessa and indeed over the entire U.S. role in the crisis in Ukraine. The earliest media reports of Right Sector's existence date only from January 2014 as it took charge of the protests in Kiev, and the earliest article on Right Sector's web site dates from November 25th 2013. Right Sector was created less than six months ago, as the U.S. State Department and the CIA was already laying the groundwork for the coup in Ukraine. So what role has the U.S. played in the recruiting, training and direction of this group that now has so much blood on its hands?

Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector's leader, joined the Stepan Bandera All-Ukrainian Tryzub (Trident)paramilitary organization in 1994. He became the head of the militia in 2005. Like the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party, one of three parties in the coup government, Tryzub drew inspiration from the World War II-era Ukrainian leader Stepan Bandera and his Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, who massacred tens of thousands of Poles and Jews during World War II and supported German campaigns that killed many more....

As much as the coup regime in Ukraine and its supporters want to project an image of Western moderation, there is a “Dr. Strangelove” element that can’t stop the Nazism from popping up from time to time, like when the Peter Sellers character in the classic movie can’t keep his right arm from making a “Heil Hitler” salute.

This brutal Nazism surfaced again on Friday when right-wing toughs in Odessa attacked an encampment of ethnic Russian protesters driving them into a trade union building which was then set on fire with Molotov cocktails. As the building was engulfed in flames, some people who tried to flee were chased and beaten, while those trapped inside heard the Ukrainian nationalists liken them to black-and-red-striped potato beetles called Colorados, because those colors are used in pro-Russian ribbons.

“Burn, Colorado, burn” went the chant.

As the fire worsened, those dying inside were serenaded with the taunting singing of the Ukrainian national anthem. The building also was spray-painted with Swastika-like symbols and graffiti reading “Galician SS,” a reference to the Ukrainian nationalist army that fought alongside the German Nazi SS in World War II, killing Russians on the eastern front...

Your one of the best posters here. I admire your spirit....your bringing a little light where there is so much negativity. Thanks for that.

but what a kind thing to say and thank you. I admire your willingness to take some punishment for shedding a different light on all of this. An article by Felicity Arbuthnot on all of this and the upcoming election, I think you'll find it interesting: Russia’s Red Line to NATO Encroachment

And cruel murderers.

I'm not saying that everything the U.S. does is an unfettered success. But supporting a government that also happens to include right-wing fascists is not putting things into the proper context, IMO.

The situation is usually more complicated than we expect.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

in front of the whole world....that is the difference. Take off the blinders. Read Pollys links above.

Britain, France, and many others

there is a tendency lately (by many DU'ers stuck in a Cold War/Red Scare mindset to always derail these debates into Russia's actions. To me Russia has been basically reacting to what we have been doing. The real problem for the United States and the Obama administration now is that the wheels are coming off the propaganda bus....video is exposing our aiding and abetting mass murder in Ukraine. That isn't about Russia...it's about US and Ukraine and the pandora's box we have opened. After Iraq the emperor had no clothes...but with Obama coming along we thought that maybe we had a chance to wear a cooler outfit.....now we are finding out the clothes are the same old fucking, excuse my french , clothes....and not only are we naked but we are naked for all the world to finally, truthfully see.

It's just beyond sad and horrific that actual people are suffering, and will suffer greatly in the future, for all of this. Makes me want to cry, actually.

I have actually cried looking at the photos of the people killed in Odessa which I posted above. It's gut wrenching what is going on.

of those killed by the nice people in the East and dumped in rivers or shot in the back? I would hope so.

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not saying what you say didn't happen (of course there are some bad guys on both sides) But what I do say is that I have video and photo evidence to back up my assertions. These are the people I cried for: Warning graphic content including elderly women burned alive, a deceased woman missing her pants who has probably been raped and a pregnant woman who was strangled at the government building in Odessa.

Pictures of elderly women and pensioners burned alive in Odessa government building fire. The violent youth who threw the molotov cocktails at them are supported financially and fully by the United States.

http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

Here are those same violent radical youth holding a pro nazi rally with fist salutes and coordinated shouts outside the government building right after the fire when the bodies of the above mentioned people were still laying inside.....

of the pro government protesters trying to save some also. It is a lot more gray than you like to post.
http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140423&t=2&i=891209853&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CBREA3M0XSG00