Occupy.

Now, tell that three-year-old to spread her legs wider!

-- Mal

and could have challenged any detention in a court of law. OP could have asked by what authority the alleged TSA agent asked him for a license. OP chose the easy path and that would be if anything, the bigger reason why we would slide into a police state.

If we lived in a police state, the OP could not publicly relate the above or complain about it without consequences. We could not condemn it out loud and the government would have your IP address and come knocking on the door.

"They Thought They were Free.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

So to use Milton Mayer's analogies:
1. What are the things we are expected to do?
2. What do we do that leaves us no time to think?
3. Where are the papers we are demanded to complete? (Other than loan applications, etc.)
4. Who is our modern day Hitler?

It goes on into parallels with Nazi Socialism but that's where I get even more lost.

and have all my life. It's not a police state.

"The Litany Against Oppression"

I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.

Work in a police state a let us know how it's just like this.

That is a statement of fact. People calling it a police state are ignorant of what a police state is. There are some - study up on them.

The alleged TSA guy asking for ID is subject to the law here. If we lived in a police state, it wouldn't be so. OP would not be able to complain publicly and could go to court. Therefore, the US is not a police state.

Though we should be vigilant that it remain so, there is no reason to exaggerate and be ridiculous. People in real police states could tell you that if they didn't live in a police state.

is another man's reason to explicate and ridicule

But thanks to Sensible Woodchucks refusing to acknowledge the encroaching state, it will be soon. I believe many will come to regret their slavish, cult of personality devotion.

"free" to "police state overnight." There is a lead-up to the police state, with the state encroaching more and more on individual freedoms and civil rights. Because the encroachment is gradual, the poor frog doesn't realize it is being cooked until the water is so hot he has no more chance to escape the cookpot.

Meanwhile, the frogs who begin to comment on how hot the water in our pot seems to be keep hearing from the other frogs that it is not boiling water, and if the nervous frog thinks the water is so hot, he should try sitting in a pot of real boiling water. Then he would understand that the water in our pot is really just comfortably warm!

Lives in a country where he can post about it, write letters to the editor and sue - he won't be jailed. If what the TSA guy did was wrong, he will have consequences.

In a police state, you show your ID and better not say anything to complain about it, or you can find yourself in indefinite, incognito detention.

or was taking the bus because OP didn't have a license?

Detention? Missing the bus...being late to, or even missing, work...being fired for being late to work...losing home after being fired for being late to work....losing children after not showing up to bring them home from daycare?

When such fears play at the back of your mind, 'going along with it' isn't taking the easy way out, it's taking the only sensible way forward. And that is what they are counting on.

Stopping people to check their licenses before getting on a bus? Fuck yeah, 'cause otherwise the terr'ists is gonna get us.

News flash. The terr'ists already got us.

What is being late to work? If our freedom can be taken away because we don't want to be late to work, we're complacent.

It would have been easier for Rosa Parks just to get up and go to the back of the bus. Some things are worth fighting for. Your post indicates that it is not worth it, just roll over and be the victims of a police state, over minor things.

If you are fired for being late to work that day, you have a bigger case. No one "loses" their children from not picking them up or has no alternative in the face of fighting an incipient police state. Your post shows you know we don't fight an incipient police state, and that's why it was not worth the OP's time to fight against it.

If the TSA is really abusing their power, someone will make a case of it. Look at our history and you can bet on that. And the courts will hear the case and decide. That doesn't happen in police states.

Yesterday unarmed drones in American skies, today armed drones. The Patriot Act is here to stay as is domestic spying and indefinite detention. Today most cities have police armed like the Army. The noose tightens and some are still in denial. Looks like we are losing verifiable elections.

Leave the DU shirt at home!

Get your hair cut, quit wearing flip-flops and smile, always smile.

If that happened to me, I would write to my congressman about it. Outrageous! Too much blood was spilled in WW2 to let this kind of tyranny take root here.

...I always ask, "am I being arrested?"

They usually back down real quick.

But I've always been a smart ass.

in So. Az. They bring the dog up to the truck for a sniff, ask me if I'm a US citizen, and let me go.
Once, a friend's truck was alerted on by a dog, and the BP drove the truck 60 miles to x-ray the fuel tank.
Nothing was found and my friend had to lose the 120 gas miles, but about 4 hours of time.
Geez, I live in this country, but if you live close to the border as I do, you are subject to extra shit.

they close the entire freeway coming from San Diego and play 20 questions with everyone, it's bullshit.

My wife is a permanent resident and most of the time they don't even ask to see the ID.

I would rather go through a hundred BP check points that some local or state policeman who is trying to enforce some AZ law where my wife can go to jail because she didn't happen to carry her papers.

One time I was behind a Vons truck and the dogs alerted and they opened it up an there were about 70 people crammed inside. Turns out they stole the truck.

Currently they are picking up a tidal wave of of Meth coming to the US at the checkpoints, hidden many times hidden in gas tanks:

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120612/NEWS0801/206120315/Border-Patrol-makes-476-800-meth-bust?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFrontpage%7Cs

here are some examples of other meth grabs, all of which had to be confirmed with imaging.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2012_news_releases/april_2012/04272012_10.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2011_news_releases/may_2011/05262011_3.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2012_news_releases/february_2012/02092012_9.xml

These are all very recent examples of meth being found inside hidden compartments on vehicles and just in the last few weeks there have been a dozen similar finds in the sectors between El Centro and El Paso, all alerted by dogs and confirmed by imaging.

For the record I doubt the 60 mile part of your friends story because they have mobile imaging devices available at the highway stops and if the imaging isn't working they have other means to inspect at the secondary point to see if there has been any after market soldering or changes to things like gas tanks. My guess is that he was pulled over for half an hour and added the embelishment.

I have lost friends to it. Just to mention, tons of meth is made in this country.
What I am against is being stopped at all within the borders of this country.
That's what the border is for.
Folks who live as close to the border as I do are subject to more "law" enforcement than those who live a bit further north.
As to my friends "claim"; he was stopped at the station north of Huachuca City on Hwy. 90. His truck was driven to Naco, on the US border, while he was driven in the back of a BR truck. I'm looking at my map, and it may be slightly less than 60 miles, like 57, one way. He does not embellish. Perhaps the BP stops where you live have better equipment. At any rate, he was released in Naco with no reimbursement for gas or consideration for the hours lost.

For that reason the courts have given the Border Patrol a geographical area in close proximity to the border (I believe that it is less than 100 miles) where they can legally conduct their operations.

If I was your friend I would call the sector office and make a complaint that the officers should have been able to conduct a visual inspection of the underside of the car (all of the stops have a little drive on lift) at the scondary inspection point at the highway check point.

Accepting that your friends version is accurate it would seem to me that there may need to be some strengthening of procedures because the trip to the imaging test wasn't really necessary. He should also write to the sector headquarters and keep a copy of the letter with him in the car so that if it happens again he can show it.

Again gvien that the cartels are now moving huge amounts of meth into the country and given that the dogs are the most effective (by far) way of finding hidden loads I think it is reasonable for the border patrol to make stops and do secondary inspections. If the imaging isn't available I think it is reasonable for the driver to insist that what ever secondary inspection needs to be done has to be done at the stop.

I am guessing that if your friend contacts the head of the sector (or the public relations officer) they will find that is the policy and the agents at this stop were in error.

If not then I would agree that a 57 mile to an imaging station is excessive unless there were signs of tampering, and that they should contact the congressperson for the areas and start a dialogue.

Didn't mean to cast asparagus on your friend but 95% of the stuff at DU about border security is simply not true.

For example I just posted this in reference to a charge that I know is not true about TSA (TSA employees don't even have arrest authority so the allegation is silly).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=820305

Here is someone posting about the TSA going into bus stops and the link they provide is for a METRO police operation that some bus rider thought was a TSA operation http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=820290.

I would be interested in the reaction that your friend gets if he contacts that sector, I have the ability to confirm whether or not it was correct policy or an error by the agents in the field.

BTW the imaging is providing unbelievable results. It has gone mostly unreported but Customs has seized a huge amount of arms going back to Mexico by starting to do images on suspicious south bound traffic.

Tons of meth is made in almost every state of this country. Why not just set up inspection stations every 50 miles or so on every road? I'll bet if everyone in every state was stopped and dog sniffed and questioned, they would be pissed too. Why are legal citizens as myself subject to extra-examination? These stops seem wrong to me. Dope is caught at the border here almost daily. Why is there a "100 mile" buffer zone for US citizens when it doesn't exist in other parts of the country?

Customs officers are authorized to operate within 100 feet of the Port of Entry after that they cannot legally continue, even a hot pursuit. For this reason Border Patrol officers are also stationed at Ports of Entry.

Border Patrol is authorized to interdict in the areas next to the border.

ICE is authorized to investigate and arrest through out the United States and its territories.

The Supreme Court has defined an area next to the border where the Border Patrol is authorized to act, the reason for the size of the area I believe is because of the rugged geopgraphy of the area.

During the Obama administration the Border Patrol has been ordered out of many urban areas (like Las Cruzes, New Mexico) as part of their regular patrols and those areas are supervised by ICE who is operating under strict guidelines to focus all resources on illegal aliens who are involved in criminal enterprizes and leave the others alone.

You began by objecting to the particular way your friend was treated and it is possible there was an error by the agents in not conducting the secondary visual inspection there, and I made a constructive suggestion.

The facts are that the highway checkpoints are continued because once the drug and human smugglers jump the fence the most effective way to get them is when they try to leave the area. Beacuse of the desert and mountains of the Southern border it is a fact that all travel to the rest of the country has to go through a few highways, a few geographic funnels. If the geography was different and it was flat and heavily populated, the highway checkpoints wouldn't be effective because you could circumvent them with street roads. Having a second check point after the border creates a funnel where the contraband must go through. While it is possible to around some of the East West highways it is not possible to avoid the North/South highways and they get a huge amount of contraband even with the cartels knowing that they are going to be checked. So effective have these checkpoints become that the cartels have even tried to paint their own FEDEX trucks, and in one case paint their own Customs vehicle, which to their bad luck got a flat tire.

part of the Dept. of Homeland Security

or was it Border Patrol for Homeland Security?
Our area (rural NW Washington) is swamped with 43 agents who have nothing to do.They have tons of vehicles, a helicopter, a new $10 million facility and lots of other toys I am sure.
Our congressman made them stop their roadblaocks to check ID. It pay to have elected reps and senators who are Democrats.

trolling for illegal immigrants, the border patrol and police are there too.

Needless to say they bring the same spirit of professionalism and respect to their work outside the airport, up to and including the use of racial slurs.

When I told the TSA guy to fuck off his exact words were "Chill out we're just looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics)".

Border Patrol, TSA Operation at Trolley Stop Leads to Deportation of 3 Students
http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=10414066

A border patrol spokesman said the agency does not conduct raids and denies charges of racial profiling. The spokesman added that this was a case of border patrol assisting the TSA in a routine operation.

Okay... so what other operation would the TSA be engaged in that requires border patrol assistance?

In your preedited version there was no mention of the border patrol.

Yes the border patrol has arresting authority.


Now for the spurious allegation that you were able to get a TSA employee to admit that they were "looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics", after you told them to 'fuck off'.

I don't believe that you told the officer to 'fuck off'.

I don't believe that he told you that he was "looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics".

I don't believe that the the TSA "targets Hispanics"

Googling "TSA targets hispanics" I find zero hits for 2012

but the most recent hit is for something in June of 2011 in Newark.


So you are alleging that the TSA is conducting operations to troll for Hispanics even though if they found any they would be unable to take any action because they are not LEOs (Federal Law Enforcement Officers) and do not have authority to make an arrest or detain an illegal immigrant, and that the TSA is conducting operations for Hispanics and using racial slurs even though no one else in the entire nation has seen the TSA do the same thing anywhere else.

I don't even believe that you were on the trolley.

So in addition to this enormous coincidence of you being on the only public trasportation where TSA agents are accused of brazenly admitting in public that they are going after in a trolley that was filled with Hispanics in a city where Hispanics are the largest ethnic group in front of Border Patrol agents who 60% of the time in the San Diego sector are Hispanic after you told a TSA employee who, in San Diego, is most likely to be Hispanic to go "fuck himself" he confided to you that he was really only after "derogatory term for Hispanics"?

Do you have any idea how deranged you sound?

You flat out deny that the TSA is engaged in immigration enforcement, I show you an example where I was present, the immigration authorities described themselves as acting in support of a "routine TSA operation" - and like at the airport... they were behaving like swaggering dipshits. And it not being an airport people were significantly less guarded in sharing their thoughts about their employer.

In what "routine" capacity would the TSA be performing that requires participation of immigration authorities?

In any event, here was the first google hit when I tried:
http://www.kcci.com/Some-Upset-By-Bus-Station-TSA-Sweep/-/9357770/7313896/-/t3n24a/-/index.html

The VIPR operation was held at the Greyhound bus depot. TSA officials said it was designed as a deterrent against terrorists.

Some who witnessed the actions said they questioned what was really going on.

"It creates an environment, an atmosphere at the local level that police and officers are prioritizing the profiling of Hispanics," said Alex Orozco, who witnessed the VIPR operation.

Orozco who also happens to be a board member for the Iowa ACLU said skin color and national origin appeared to be the resons passengers were being singled out tuesday afternoon.

(snip)

The TSA told KCCI that they want people to know the agency is here to protect the transportation infrastructure. The agency is not responsible for enforcement of immigration law, but two agents from immigration and customs enforcement were also at the bus station during the sweep.

Last edited Sun Jul 1, 2012, 09:54 AM - Edit history (1)

In the second article the TSA states "The agency is not responsible for enforcement of immigration law, but two agents from immigration and customs enforcement were also at the bus station during the sweep." Is immigration in Iowa so bored they just latch on to any operation that gets them out of the office? Or were they there to take into custody any suspected illegal immigrants the TSA uncovered in their whatever? Is a greyhound station or public transit of some sort really the best place to look for the "no visible means of support, mcmansion and late model car" cases you describe?

Well, since you seem to be all-in... As far as I can tell these VIPR squads are just grunts for federal law enforcement doing the leg work they don't really want to with another departments budget.

And if you don't believe me, I don't really care. The episode was over in seconds and not quite the suspenseful stand-off you seem to be imagining, if they escalated the situation they would have looked ridiculous. It didn't even shock me at the time as I have witnessed all sorts of bullshit from the TSA including other instances of racially insensitive language at LAX which appeared to be directed at affluent female Mexicans. And on another occasion Asian passengers were being referred to as "retards" for failing to immediately comprehend poorly communicated instructions that included vernacular one might not be expected to have encountered in their TOEFL studies.

Fuck That!

"go fuck yourself"

:::: Me, standing at a bus stop, approached by some TSA nimrod - :::::

"Can I see your drivers license please?"

"Go fuck yourself"

But I'm more than willing to find out

It's perfect.

airports if the people did not stand up then. Because there is so much money in this 'national security theater' game they have going. You didn't have to be paranoid, you just had to follow the money, which led right to Chertoff and his buddies.

.

... up and until the Gestapo comes for the hooters. Well, life is an exercise in denial -- some people are just better at it than others.

-- Mal

Soon you won't be able to leave your home without your papers....and we all will think it is normal.

proven right. Then the same people suddenly "knew it all the along". You should have seen the abuse some of us took at Kos in the spring/summer of '08 over the dire predictions about shenanigans in the financial sector.

And people are right back listening to the Jim Kramers.

Added more info on TSA, VIPR, Bus Safe and increases in funding in post #62

I also saw this shit coming.

By the way there's more to come, but I think you already suspect that too.

See http://www.themoneyparty.org/main/2011/10/why-the-new-security-zone-along-the-canadian-border-2/ . Check out the second paragraph.

Seems within 100 miles of a border or coast you're subject to search even if there's no reason to believe you've done anything you shouldn't have.

the TSA is not law enforcement. They are safety enforcement. Think hall monitors from high school, they dont have any more power. Note that there are still County Deputy Sheriffs at the airports to do the actual Law enforcement.

They are supposedly not looking to arrest anyone for anything that wouldn't have to do with safety on the vehicle. So it would not be for the purpose of criminal investigation. For all OP knows, they had a warning of an attack on that bus. Not every government agent is trying to lose us our freedoms.

And of course had an attack occurred, who'd be to blame? The TSA for not checking enough.

The 'airport' security program has been expanded, flying mostly under the radar, for several years now. Just as predicted by the 'paranoid' Civil Liberties Orgs and mostly the 'left' who have been opposed to these policies since Bush first implemented them. Here is some confirmation that the 'security'

TSA screenings aren't just for airports anymore

Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's some info on VIPR and on additional expansion of DHS, TSA and Border Patrol funding and roles:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/travel/tsa-vipr-passenger-train-searches/index.html
TSA rail, subway spot-checks raise privacy issues
By Thom Patterson, CNN
updated 10:05 AM EST, Sat January 28, 2012
TSA officials like to point out that the acronym stands for Transportation Security Administration, not the Airport Security Administration. And that's where VIPR comes in.
Born after 2004's Madrid railway bombings, VIPR suffered some embarrassing coordination struggles, transit officials say.
The program has 15 teams and is expanding to get access to 12 new teams to spot-check thousands of transportation depots across the nation.
VIPR teams conducted 3,895 operations in "surface modes" nationwide in 2010, according to the Department of Homeland Security (PDF).


Much more at above link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Intermodal_Prevention_and_Response_team

Much info and many links at the wiki page. Includes info on budget increases:
Budget

FY2009: $30 million, 10 VIPR teams[32]
FY2010: increase of $50 million, for 15 surface transport VIPR teams [33]
FY2012: $109 million[34]
10 aviation teams
15 surface transport teams
12 new multi-modal team

They're asking for another increase for 2013:
http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/testimony/20120215-1a-s1-fy2013-budget.shtm
Fund 37 Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) teams, including 12 multi-modal Teams. VIPR teams are composed of personnel with expertise in inspection, behavior detection, security screening, and law enforcement for random, unpredictable deployments throughout the transportation sector to prevent potential terrorist and criminal acts.


EPIC has many resources noting the increase and privacy abuses. The paragraphs below include embedded links with more info on EPIC's site:

http://epic.org/privacy/airtravel/backscatter/
2013 Federal Budget Limits Body Scanners, But Expands Domestic Surveillance: According to White House budget documents and the Congressional Testimony of Secretary Napolitano, DHS will not purchase any new airport body scanners in 2013. However, the agency will expand a wide range of programs for monitoring and tracking individuals within the United States. This includes the development of biometric identification techniques for programs such as Secure Communities. DHS will also seek funding for "Einstein 3," a network intrusion detection program that enables surveillance of private networks. EPIC has urged the DHS to comply with the requirements of the federal Privacy Act, and is currently pursuing several Freedom of Information Act lawsuits against the agency. For more information see, EPIC - Body Scanners and Radiation Risks, EPIC - E-Verify, EPIC - Secure Communities, EPIC - Fusion Centers, EPIC - Drones, EPIC - Cybersecurity, EPIC - Secure Flight. (Feb. 20, 2012)
Documents Reveal New Details About DHS Development of Mobile Body Scanners: EPIC has obtained more than one hundred fifty pages of documents detailing the Department of Homeland Security’s development of mobile body scanners and other crowd surveillance technology. The documents were obtained as a result of a Freedom Information Act lawsuit brought by EPIC against the federal agency. According to the documents obtained by EPIC, vehicles equipped with mobile body scanners are designed to scan crowds and pedestrians on the street and can see through bags, clothing, and even other vehicles. The documents also reveal that the mobile backscatter machines cannot be American National Standards Institute “certified people scanners” because of the high level of radiation output and because subjects would not know they have been scanned. For more information see EPIC: Whole Body Imaging Technology and EPIC: EPIC v. DHS (Suspension of the Body Scanner Program). (Aug. 31, 2011)

Here's a post from me with links about TSA budget and Border Patrol budget increases and expansion that I posted to a thread about TSA bus-riding agents:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=628201

Additional links about TSA "Bus Safe" in Houston:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/in_focus&id=8629966

METRO's counter-terror intitiave draws criticism

HOUSTON (KTRK) -- One week after METRO rolled out what it called an unprecedented approach to safety, there is criticism of just what happened. It was a big operation with what critics have called questionable results.

You paid for 81 cops to saturate Houston bus stops and routes last Friday. Most were from METRO, but some were from the federal Transportation Security Administration, as well as HPD.

~~~

METRO called it a synchronized, counter-terrorism exercise, and the first ever in Houston welcoming the federal TSA to Houston bus stops.





http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/in_focus&id=8637693

METRO faces public backlash over counter-terror intitiave


On April 13, the METRO Police Department invited TSA to be a part of its bus-safe exercise. METRO said then and repeated for days afterwards there would be random searches of bus and train passengers' bags.
~~~

A friend of Broze took pictures of the bus-safe exercise that he says show TSA agents and METRO police asking riders where they're going as they get off the bus and how often they ride that route.

"METRO and TSA were going onto the buses and questioning people about their normal routes and their normal behavior, and it just kind of creates an atmosphere of fear," Broze said.


There's much more if you search DU2.

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

That's the one where they first said there would be random bag checks, then said there were bag checks, then (after public push back) said that there weren't. What's consistent is that they said they invited TSA and that TSA was there.

http://blogs.ridemetro.org/blogs/write_on/archive/2012/04/16/Multi_2D00_Agency-Sting-Operation-on-Rail-_2600_-Bus-Successful.aspx
In an unprecedented approach that involved four law enforcement agencies - including federal agents - METRO launched a national BusSafe pilot program last Friday that saturated its system and resulted in quality arrests, making transit safer for passengers.

The METRO Police Department, Houston Police Department, Harris County Precinct 7 Deputy Constables and 15 agents - part of so-called viper teams - from the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) joined forces in a synchronized, counter-terrorism exercise that focused on bus stops and shelters and transit centers.



That is not inference, it is confirmation. METRO itself says TSA was present.

Also, in my post above, the reporters noted TSA was present and I even included a quote from the article in my post specifying that. To repeat:
You paid for 81 cops to saturate Houston bus stops and routes last Friday. Most were from METRO, but some were from the federal Transportation Security Administration, as well as HPD.



Further, in post 75 I provided information from the Whitehouse's website noting intercity buses are included now in TSA's jurisdiction. And in post 98, I added info about them being invited by Minnesota Valley Transit Authority to patrol and verification by MVTA that TSA has already been patrolling at park and rides there.


This is a clear expansion from TSA operating at airports.


And that's not the only expansion of security that is occurring. As I noted and posted in links above, TSA, DHS and the Border Patrol have been receiving steady budget increases (even as many other important social programs are cut) and have been expanding their roles well beyond their original missions. And with this expansion has come lack of definition and uncertainty about what roles are appropriate as well as lack of defined oversight such as local law enforcement is subject to. That has been a serious issue up here in regard to the Border Patrol as has been documented in investigative reporting done by the Seattle Weekly.

And I think it's well illustrated in this thread, which contains many posts stating that people don't even think TSA is doing this when even the official agencies operating with TSA report about TSA engaging in these actions.

As far as providing security, what security was provided by TSA searching people getting OFF the train in Savannah?
And even as they are expanding this program and others, what security is provided by this currently small number of teams, popping up at bus stops and on buses (whether city stops or park and ride stops)?

A Senior Policy analyst with the ACLU puts it well here:

http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/tsa-seeks-expand-airport-experience-everyday-life
Anyone who has traveled across America knows just how gigantic our nation is. In our country of over 300 million people, the 25 VIPR teams wander around, randomly searching and harassing citizens going about their private business, just in case they happen to intercept a terrorist attack. The government has never created bands of agents to roam around American society looking for those who are about to go on a shooting spree in their campus, office building, or local McDonald’s. The essential silliness of such an idea is self-apparent. But such shooting sprees – though they are basically freak occurrences – are far more common than terrorism.

In one example of the VIPR teams in action, agents screened people who had just gotten off a train in Savannah, Georgia. This incident was only publicized because this video was posted of TSA agents searching the passengers (including a 9-year-old), ordering them around, etc., just like in an airport. The TSA later issued a partial apology, acknowledging that the screening did not make sense – but only because no more trains were leaving the station. It did not admit the fundamentally misguided nature of the program itself.

I'd also tell him that I am not driving the bus, and do not have to show him my driver's license. He is not police, he's out of his jurisdiction!

and was pranking you.

Really, though - abuse of authority seems out of control these days.

If another passenger who was wearing a turbin, a head scarf or a Burka would have received the same treatment would you have found that acceptable?

Don

"And I am not of the type that is usually profiled." Not that it is acceptable to profile, but rather that the OP was amazed to discover TSA turning up the heat.

But you're right, it's a dangerous subtext.

-- Mal

I was scanning the thread to see if someone had raised that point - which I found troubling, as well.

of some form of thought crime

With part of the 4th Amendment on one side:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

And a hand, flipping the bird on the other:

____________________________________

PAPERS?



HERE'S MY PAPERS!
____________________________________

Ready made responses to goon squads...

I would ask them to wait a second, get my camera ready on my phone,
and take his picture when he looks up from the card.

Absolute gold! lol

behavior at airports.

for your DL was actually TSA? Did you see his government-issued ID?

Details, please.

probably "The Cities", as buses are few and far between elsewhere.

Gotta stop those "terrorists", ya know.

just having some fun at your expense.

in my car, at home and in my backpack that I carry everywhere.

I don't understand why more people don't.

in its own separate pocket.

Makes me wonder if this story is accurate or not.

you know?

But if you're going to take the time to start a conversation, you should at least have the courtesy to stick around for a while.

I don't believe everything I read. Not even if it's on DU.

Especially the part about "I don't believe everything I read. Not even if it's on DU."

That makes two of us.



This reminds me just a little too much of the story about the toenail clippers being taken away from a soldier story a couple of years ago that some wingnuts were posting here.

Don

It's a post on an internet forum, not an MSNBC Special Report. It doesn't slam Obama or any Dems, it doesn't recommend any third party or third way, and it doesn't violate DU policy. If its false, and a few believe it, what's the big deal?

not because there are questionable facts in the post, not because there unsupported conclusions, and not because there is a clear bias or agenda that flies in the face of honesty.

The reason the OP got challenged is because the post hit on Friday night, and by Saturday afternoon the OP had not responded to any questions. Wow...someone might have something more interesting to do on a Friday and Saturday before Father's day, and didn't spend it hanging out on DU, imagine that.

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I find it extremely frustrating, We're developing extremely short attention spans, and quick trigger fingers. That's a poor combination.

Believe what you want, I lived it.

but do you have to question someone's character just because they didn't respond according to YOUR schedule?

I referred to whether or not the post is accurate. People post things that aren't true all the time. Is this one of them? Just pointing out that it's possible.

if you say its false, you're saying the OP lied.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but to base that assumption on whether or not the poster responded in a timely fashion is unfair, and a strike against someone's character.

I said the OP has not supplied any of the details that other posters have requested, which makes one question whether or not the post is accurate.

Objectivity is my best friend.

just because there has not been a response within an imposed time frame that you determined as sufficient is not objectivity, it's subjectivity.

And you're right...you didn't come right out and call bullshit. You just implied it, and now you're backing away from that accusation.

And I don't care about being right OR wrong. You even raised the possibility that the OP wasn't true so why do you care so much about people accepting it as such?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless, you're welcome to have the last word on our exchange if you want. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just pointing out what others have, that this post is lacking in details and the poster does not seem interested in supplying them.

mass transportation, and lots of DUers have provided information that answers that questions. Yes, they have, to bus terminals, train stations, ferries, subways and more and planning on further expansions. So the likelihood is that the OP is one of the tens of thousands of US Citizens who encountered the TSA going about their normal, daily routines.

We get lots of OPs that recount personal experiences on DU. Dozens eg, about conversations with co-workers who are Right Wingers among other kinds of personal encounters. There is rarely any reason to assume the OPs are lying.

However, I don't blame you for being doubtful, as this sure doesn't sound like something you would find in a Democracy. But it's true, sorry!

Just because I read something on the Internet does not mean I am going to automatically accept it as true.

And all any of us have to say to someone who asks to see an ID is "No, thanks." And be done with it. Unless it's from a uniformed police officer, of course.

Unless you're afraid that some consequences will come your way.

I refuse to be afraid.

'I refuse to be afraid'.

What do you think then of the TSA's expanded program to US soil?

An occasional request to see an ID does not bother me. If it became routine for everyone -or for even a majority of people- then, yes, I would say it would have similarities to fascism. But I have not seen the evidence that this is even close to what is happening.

...about the story. You seem to like to question the accuracy of stories that don't fit your preconceived notion of The Way Things Ought To Be (as judged by Randome). Funny.

You're referring, of course, to the post about a woman having her garden forcibly dispersed by local authorities. I wasn't the only one suggesting that 'something is missing from the story'.

Objectivity. It's what's for breakfast.

just because it fits in with a preconceived notion of How Horrible Things Are and how It's the End of the World and The Fascists are taking over."

Look at all the posters in the thread who believe it unconditionally, merely because someone on the internet claimed it.

over again in this thread. The TSA, as predicted when Bush was trying to push his Airport Security policies and the 'left' fought him so hard it actually slowed down those draconian intrusions on our civil rights, the TSA has now expanded its 'programs'. Something we on the Left were told would never happen, that we were just paranoid, that we just 'hated Bush' etc. etc.

So now it's happening.

We have no idea whether the OP was really stopped and asked for his/her DL at a bus stop by a TSA agent. It might never have happened, happened but was not a TSA agent, the OP might have been doing something OP is not telling us about.


Wikipedia:

A Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response team, sometimes Visible Intermodal Protection and Response (VIPR, or VIPER) is a Transportation Security Administration program. Various government sources have differing descriptions of VIPR's exact mission. It is specifically authorized by 6 U.S.C. § 1112 which says that the program is to "augment the security of any mode of transportation at any location within the United States". Authority for the program is under the Secretary of Homeland Security. The program falls under TSA's Office of Law Enforcement.[1] TSA OLE shares responsibility for the program with the Office of Security Operations and TSNM[expand acronym].[2]
The VIPR teams detain and search travelers at railroad stations, bus stations, ferries, car tunnels, ports, subways, truck weigh stations, rest areas, and special events.[3][4][5][6][7] They also can deploy to deal with CBRNE/WMD (chemical, biological, radioactive, nuclear, and explosive weapons of mass destruction).[8] They also inspect ships, containers, and vehicles.[9]
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Facts and research? What's your REAL agenda?