I hope someday we get the full truth of how this episode went down.

indelicately stated. Should have been a Party decision. Democrats need an alter ego that questions each decision and asks "What could go wrong, and what are our options if they do go wrong?" An escape plan IOW.

Get him over the line, then retire, just Trump is going to do.

Especially the 2012 one who crushed Paul Ryan in that debate. This Biden, not so much.

That debate was the most the most consequential in the history of Presidential debates.

Biden should have announced after the 2022 mid-terms that he was serving only one term, and Biden’s staff and advisors should never have let it go near as far as it did. My sense it was Biden’s staff that feared losing their positions and power, and not so much Biden. If Biden didn’t run, we probably would have a Denocratic President right now.

10 point loss?

Biden was getting ripped to shreds because of his age and his "senior moment" in the debate. That cost him Democratic votes. How many, we'll never know

did not vote in 2024. We can only guess at the reason(s).

I live in a swing state and know Dems that completely freaked out about Biden after the debate. They were all on the Biden should drop out bandwagon. But I also know none of them would have stayed home and not voted for Biden had he remained the candidate. The votes Biden could/would have gotten, but Harris probably didn't get were from the old white guys of Biden's generation who related to him. My instinct tells me saswaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayu66666666txxc` gHarris lost enough of those old, white, rust belt counties men to cost her the election in Pennsylvania.

Harris did lose, but there would have been a down-ballot wipeout if Biden had stayed in.

we had never had an 81-year-old incumbent before.

Biden's debate performance lit the fears that many people had about his age, maybe unfairly, but when is politics fair? Joe had a blind spot about how important that was going to be going into another election.

If he had been honest with himself, he would have taken his own earlier rhetoric to heart when he said, "Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else. There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me. They are the future of this country".

Is that one somehow okay? Did anybody bring that up in the last election?

The age of Joe Biden became a fucking obsession. Nobody said a peep about the donald, who’s right behind him, age-wise. His advanced age somehow doesn’t count? I guess so, since his many crimes, lies, and outrages don’t seem to, either.

Worth remembering Trump’s campaign manager was the architect of the Swiftboat attack on John Kerry. Bush went AWOL from the National Guard. So of course Chris LaCivita made up lies about Kerry’s stellar military record.

Trump is unhealthy and deteriorating mentally. Yes Biden was physically slowing down, but healthy for a man his age and still on top of things mentally.

So of course they projected everything that was wrong w Trump on to Joe.

Deciding to run for reelection was not one of them.

Harris's most vulnerable positions were those that were being done under Biden. She straddled running as an incumbent with running as herself with her own ideas. I think she would have done a bit better if she had sold her own plans and ideas, since Biden had become a dirty word by then (thanks to unchallenged Republican framing).

have all been avoided. IMO .

This is not in any way a reasonable assertion.

You may not like what I posted but your dislike of what I posted is no proof that my comment is unreasonable. Had he resigned she would have become president and it would have proved how well she could govern. As an incumbent she would have coasted into a second term.

1 - just try convincing Biden to give up his office and see how far you get.

2 - being an incumbent would be no guarantee of a Harris win.

Try being realistic.

You think your way and I'll think mine. Don't like it? Use the ignore feature.

no discussion or explanation even though I gave you an explanation of my comment in post # 43 . My comment was very clear. You are the one who took umbrage. It's my opinion and I don't need any further discussion of my post with you. I stand by it. You don't like what I said. That's it AFAIC.

Have a nice day.

I don't know if I agree, but we will never know. Who can prove you wrong?

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/09/kamala-harris-107-days-excerpt/684150/

Here is the paragraph that may be drawing the most attention:

"And of all the people in the White House, I was in the worst position to make the case that he should drop out. I knew it would come off to him as incredibly self-serving if I advised him not to run. He would see it as naked ambition, perhaps as poisonous disloyalty, even if my only message was: Don’t let the other guy win."

That truth doesn't have to be self-serving. True loyalty includes delivering the truth, even when it carries a great personal cost. It wouldn't have been if VPOTUS put the good of the nation ahead of her political ambitions.

For example:

"Mr. President and Mrs. Biden, it's time to step aside. If you don't, there is a real possibility that Trump will return to the presidency. In a perfect world, any Vice President would be honored to follow their President into the office. But that world doesn't exist. If you love the United States enough to withdraw from the race, I will not be a candidate. We have a good bench of talented Democrats who can mount a stronger race. I will wholeheartedly support our new candidate. More importantly, your legacy will not be another Trump administration. You will be remembered as the President who saved us and then wisely stood aside in favor of the next generation of leaders."

Last edited Wed Sep 10, 2025, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)

That question suggests Joe Biden possibly doesn't love America enough.

I know your heart is in the right place and I agree Joe should not have run for a 2nd term, but questioning someone's love of country is not the way to make him consider a request.


Peace, Martin

"I say this with the risk of sounding nakedly ambitious or disloyal. I assure you I am not. That being said, I don't think I could forgive myself if I did not air my concerns."

Is spoken out loud. It was a betrayal of decades of trust Biden built up with the public. People age. They lose sharpness. It does not mean we admire them less. It means you should not let your ego or that of someone who loves and defends you at all costs let you hang onto halcyon days that will never return. Biden legacy would have been spectacular. Now. Not so much. Look what has been wrought l. We will pay for this if not for a century, but with our country. Especially with the lives, hopes, dreams and aspirations of Black women.

Joe ALWAYS gets the blame!

coming from Kamala Harris of all people. Biden did so much for her which was surprising at the time considering the way she attacked him during the primaries. Though he was hurt by her attack, he rose above it, making him a far better person.

Joe Biden deserves a lot of respect and credit for what he helped achieve during his political career and his four years as president, but he also deserves credit or blame for important decisions he made.

The decision to run for a 2nd term at the end of which he would be 86 years old was fraught with potential consequences. I personally believe he made the wrong decision, which increased the likelihood of Trump's return to office.

We can never know what would have happened if President Biden declared after the 2022 midterms that he would not run again. I think opening up the race to the next generation of Democratic leaders would have generated excitement among voters, and the candidate to emerge as the nominee would have gotten more souls to the polls and better convinced swing voters that the Democratic Party had a better vision for the future and policies that would serve the interests of all Americans.

How many voters are now calling for younger Democratic leaders to energize citizens and get America back on track?

The decision to run for a 2nd term was for Joe and Jill to make, but if he did not seek or accept input from Democratic strategists, the blame is on him. If those around him thought it was a mistake but out of respect or fear did not level with the president, they share some of the blame.

Of course, others may believe running again was the right decision and that Joe would have won if he stayed the course despite the disastrous debate. I watched that debate, and can't forget the stunned and crestfallen faces at MSNBC immediately afterwards. It was plainly evident they saw the presidency slipping into Trump's hands in that moment.

In my opinion the biggest story from that debate should NOT have been Joe's faltering performance, but the Gish Gallop of bold faced easily disprovable LIES spewed by his orange opponent. In the early years of televised national debates, such incredible LIES would have ended a political career.

Alas, we are in a post-truth era. Reality TV persona trumps facts and integrity. Joe Biden looked like a weak old man incapable of being President of the United States, despite his experience and grasp of the issues. But he lost that dog & pony show to the most unfit Piece Of Shit ever to stain the White House.

He did the right thing by dropping out of the race, but it may have been too late. Or maybe not and nothing could have made the difference. All the reasons Harris lost may be valid and if any one of them were different, she might have won. This is something historians will debate for a long time.

Overall though, Biden must be accountable for his part in the result, just as we must be accountable for ours.

Handing fodder to the enemy. Jesus.

We are flailing badly.

As much as I admire Kamala Harris - and I think she would have been excellent as our President - America can just not handle the idea of a black woman in charge. Yes it's racism and sexism to the highest degree. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, and maybe it won't ever happen.

Kamala herself has probably accepted this already. She can be a big fish in a small pond, if she decides to run for Governor of California. But she'll never be a big fish in a big pond.

But...got another email today wanting a donation for.....

That was proved in 2016. Apart from LBJ, there hasn't been a more qualified candidate than Hillary Rodham Clinton in my lifetime.

Of course, the argument can always be made that she lost only on a technicality, that she was "the people's cherce." But making that argument won't get you anywhere, since that ridiculous technicality was rock-solid.

There aren't enough women who will vote for a women President. And we already know how most male voters feel about it.
(I'm not referring to any specific candidate. I'm talking about the general idea of a woman President.)

She won the election, the people spoke just like in 2000. I doubt anyone thought it would be some runaway win. We all know what a fucking joke the Electoral college is.

Had there been an open primary, someone else could have well won it.

Yes, it's honest, and it may clear her head. This was a difficult loss.

But this is the same as Hillary's book in 2017. It didn't change anything. I couldn't read Hillary's book (even though I have it) and I won't be able to read VP Harris's book. I don't think this accomplishes anything. When Trump got thumped in 2020, he didn't produce a big mea culpa. He just stayed on the attack and only aired his grievances. I certainly don't want Democrats to act like that, but I am not sure a book like this is helpful to moving forward.

I generally try to avoid Morning Joe but accidentally landed on it this AM while they were quoting the Atlantic article and excerpts with great relish.

The Harris campaign was a marvel and for a few brief moments gifted me exhilaration and hope. But the whole Bidenocalypse? I don’t want to hear a backward-looking thing about it while we’re in the middle of this hurricane. Do we need to learn from the past? Sure but read the current room. A memoir is a real luxury in the middle of a live crisis.

She was thrust into the difficult position of being a candidate while also being Vice-President.
Joe initially said he intended to be a one-term president - he made the statement either during his 2020 campaign, or just after his successful election. That's why I wondered why he stayed in the 2024 race so long, suddenly withdrawing in late July and endorsing Kamala in early August.

I often wonder how different things might have turned out if Joe had simply carried out his initial plan, allowing the Democratic Party to assemble a list of prospective candidates for us to choose from.

I also wonder how different things might be if Joe had simply refused to debate Dump.

I often wonder how different things might have turned out if Joe had simply carried out his initial plan, allowing the Democratic Party to assemble a list of prospective candidates for us to choose from.

If that had happened, as I wish it did, we the people would have had a true opportunity to express our preference for our Democratic candidate. We may have won, and stopped fascism in it's tracks!

'Joe initially said he intended to be a one-term president - he made the statement either during his 2020 campaign, or just after his successful election. That's why I wondered why he stayed in the 2024 race so long, suddenly withdrawing in late July and endorsing Kamala in early August.'

None of this is helping.

The house is on fire.

It was a mistake to pick him in 2020.

I admire the hell out of him but the stakes are two high and the idea of incumbency too valuable. My max age for a good candidate is below 70 because i want them to have a high chance of viability over a 10 year window. That is the first campaign extending through two terms.

It was always a terrible risk to pick someone who would be pushing the boundaries of a viable age when it came time for the re-election. Even if he decided not to run, it would have been forfeiting the value of being an incumbent.

We took the chance and we paid the price.

We can argue all we want about the dichotomy of loyalty to Joe versus new-blood with Kamala. Both options sucked so it was pick your poison. The die was cast 4 years before.

I said what I said.

The results speak for themselves. A choice between the previous administration vs. Trump was the perfect match up for 2020.

If Joe had stepped aside after one term for a younger generation, it would be seen as magnanimous and he would have gone out with much higher approval ratings. The right wouldn't have been able to build sentiment against a man with fading presentation skills and the focus would have been solely on Trump in 2024.

But it was not only a mistake to pick Biden in 2020, it was a mistake for him to even run. He wasn't going to run but was prodded to and joined late in the primary for the sole reason of stopping Bernie Sanders from having a chance. Joe was the only one more popular to win with the base than Sanders at that time, who was polling ahead of every other candidate. The establishment Democrats were, and still seem to be, deathly afraid of the progressive wing gaining influence. They scare corporate donors, and threaten their own opportunities with those cozy relationships.

IMO Sanders who polled ahead of Trump, would have also won in 2020, and even though he's senior, still is sharp as a tack. Because he would have also tapped into that "outsider" maverick, helping the working class, and taking on Washington corruption swamp tag that Trump took advantage of (even though of course he was the opposite of that).
And because Sanders would have actually taken on those challenges, he'd have been still popular in 2024.
And the Democratic party would be well on its way to ushering in the new generation, who Sanders is not afraid of, to take over for him.

I think voters, especially independents, younger liberal educated voters, were, and still are frankly, looking for drastic populist change, even in 2024, and Sanders would have still been that transitional populist President. As Trump is also a transitional populist President. But in the opposite and worst possible way. But that was the only anti-swamp choice independents believed they had. While those younger, as well as new, and even some Democratic voters were not enamoured with Biden who represented the old guard continuing on.

I am Canadian, so perhaps I have a more natural appetite for liberalism, but IMO America missed out on one of the best Presidents in history with Sanders, to advance workers, and begin to address the increasing wealth divide, and corruption, they could have ever had. But the Democratic party stalwarts just couldn't embrace such a populist radical change to the left. So America voted for the only other populist radical change instead. Just my opinion from the great white north

I think he would have been an amazing President, and gotten reelected.

... if it was "reckless to let Biden make reelection decision on his own," then should she have gathered the cabinet to use the 25th and remove him from the Presidency? Maybe I'm not reading this correctly... but if he was unable to make that decision "on his own," why was he allowed to make any decisions? Aside: I think he was capable of deciding to stay in... or drop out of the race. I guess the best thing I can say is maybe Harris regrets she didn't give more advice to the Bidens. I still think Biden (or Harris) would be better in the job than what we have now.

I thought that one error was that she wouldn't put an inch of distance between her and Joe. It was kind of the opposite of Gore distancing himself from Clinton in 2000, when the Clinton presidency was popular.

There was an awkward exchange that was replayed a lot from The View when they asked Kamala if there was any policy/action of Biden's that she would have done differently and she said that there was nothing that she would change. If you are asked that question in a job interview and have no answer, you probably don't get the job.

IMO, she should have still praised Biden, but talked about a few minor things she would have tweaked. Maybe something like they didn't realize how strong the recvovery from COVID would be at bringing us back to near full employment and in retrospect, she would have paced out some of the work from the infrastructure bill to minimize inflation pressure on the economy. Then, you shift to talking about Trump and how he was unable to pass an infrastructure bill and supports vaccine deniers and that his policies would damage all the economic recovery that we've accomplished.

Kamala kind of needs to reflect back on what happened in 2024. It would be weird if she didn't now. Joe was a good President, but that debate performance was one of the costlier two hours in American political history. He may have been too close to it for an accurate assessment, but others should have intervened more strongly.

It would have been a different election if there had been the building energy of a full primary schedule and a field of qualified candidates all eviscerating Trump every day and a greater sense of legitimacy in the ultimate candidate - although like I said, Kamala did a great job in the situation she had.

...with her Obama like grace, wit, intelligence, and decency.

Of course as President she would have made mistakes and many of us here would have complained vociferously about them.

In my view these remarks are a mistake.

It would be better to complain about the right wing media, in which I include one time liberal bastions like the NY Times and bozo Bezos's Washington Post, emboldened by a corrupt Supreme Court that authored Citizens United and is now in the act of dismantling the US Constitution.

Such remarks would be helpful.

The Biden administration was a breath of fresh air, and Ms. Harris was a part of that legacy.

I believe President Biden should have announced he wasn't running in time for primaries. That said it was a legitimate reality that he probably was the only person in 2020 who could defeat Trump. I don't think - and let's be clear it was a real possibility - that the Bernie bros would have been restrained from jumping right in. They would have lost, and now people would be cursing Biden for not running again.

Ultimately however, the fault lies with the American people. Having just seen the film version of the play Hamilton, I began thinking and reading about that founding father, and am thinking about buying and reading the Federalist papers. My preliminary internet poking around led me to understand that he actually worried about the likes of Trump and his mob of incompetent, vicious thugs and intellectual Lilliputians. That these sorts have risen to power shows a populace in free fall and decline. As much as we may not like it, the orange pedophile in the White House is on our population and no one else. We are a drunk nation.

Ms. Harris would be better served to focus on issues for the future. She has a marvelous voice, a potential force for good. These retrospective recriminations in contrast do no good. The future matters and the past with all its warnings, less so.

Our democracy, our country is collapsing. We need to focus on that more than should, coulda, so on and so on.

There are some feelings and opinions that are best unsaid and her comments will never go away, much like her accusations during the Democratic primary debate about busing and Biden. He was hurt and disappointed, especially being she was a family friend, but he rose above it and chose her as his running mate.

and we'll never agree on what the best tack would have been. But it's interesting to hear her side of the story. I hope it doesn't cause excessive sniping between camps.

I question the wisdom of putting this on the record at this time.

I'm sick of the Democrats are in disarray talk. Belly button gazing isn't always productive!

at all.

Because people want dirt.

To keep this very short.

1. The party leadership was and is, living under some rock. I''m all over this.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/13244015

2. Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda are for losers. They don't help worth shit, unless they're used to learn enduring lessons.

3. And by the way, EVERYTHING CHANGES except human nature (which doesn't but could stand a tune-up).
So, what you read (or write) has about zero applicability to TODAY. Because:
The people are different.
The time is different.
The places are different, and
The circumstances are different.

There is no elder statesperson running that I know of.
We'd be fighting the previous war to think so.
And so on ad infinitum.

4. If you or anyone else made a misjudgment in the past. JUST FUCKING OWN IT, and don't let it drag on.
If you let a matter slide instead of making a bold move IN PERSON, too bad. That makes YOU the weak link, and why advertise it?

Give me a report on the present, because today is the culmination of everything in the past, enduring lessons, and a prescription and action plan.

Not like Harris was just some average schmuck on the street, presumably Joe might have listened to her. Like, "Mr President, I think we need to run a strong primary season with younger candidates..."

Didn't we have primaries?

When, before, has a sitting president been denied the option of deciding whether or not to run again? I wasn't a history major, but it must have been a long time ago, if ever. Well, maybe except for Nixon.

Honestly, just based on this, I doubt I'd vote for her in the next primary. There are some other likely candidates showing up lately anyway. I'm just done with the Biden bashing.

try to shift the blame onto someone else.

Living here in PA, we were innudated with campaign ads. Harris had a huge campaign cash war chest. Yet she ran nearly the same campaign strategy as Clinton did in this state in 2016. She concentrated on the big urban Dem strongholds counting on turnout to offset the rural R votes. Had she followed Fetterman's example and gone to the rural parts of PA and especially explained how much "Bidenomics" was working for their communities, she might well have won. She and her strategists completely missed the message sent by voters in the 2016 PA primary where Bernie Sanders handily won the rural counties. There was a winning economic populist message, but Harris never deployed it. Instead she spent her time trying to woo never Trumper Rs.