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question everything

(50,840 posts)
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 01:32 PM Aug 1

The Meaning of Gaza's Tunnels - Bret Stephens, NYT

(From last year but still relevant)

Ever since Israel withdrew its soldiers and settlers from Gaza in 2005, critics have accused it of blockading and immiserating the territory — turning it, as they say, into an open-air prison. The charge was always preposterous. Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Gazans were often treated in Israeli hospitals for cancer and other life-threatening conditions. Israel provided Gaza with much of its electricity and other critical goods even after Hamas came to power in 2007. Now, as Israeli troops uncover more of Gaza’s vast underground city, the falsity of the accusation has become even more apparent.

According to a report this month in The New York Times, Israeli defense officials now estimate that Hamas’s tunnels measure between 350 and 450 miles in a territory that’s just 25 miles long. (By comparison, the London Underground is only 249 miles long.) Some of Gaza’s tunnels are wide enough for cars; some are more than 150 feet deep; some serve as munitions depots; others are comfortably kitted out as command bunkers.

(snip)

All this should radically reconfigure the world’s understanding of what Hamas has done in, and to, Gaza. It has turned the territory into a gigantic military fortress purpose-built to attack Israel, endure Israeli retaliation and interpose civilian lives and infrastructure as part of its means of defense. Imagine any other government doing something similar to its people — say, putting the NORAD command center directly below Times Square — for a sense of the outrage Hamas is perpetrating against its own people.

That’s not the only outrage. How much did it cost to build these tunnels? How much concrete, steel and electricity did it divert from civilian needs? How many millions of hours of labor were given to the effort? What was the cost of building up its stockpile of thousands of rockets, which continue to be fired at Israel? How many ordinary Gazans had to be conscripted into the effort of miserably shoveling dirt deep underground — and how many perished in the effort?

We may never know for sure. But in 2014, around the time Israel first started to get a sense of the scale of Hamas’s tunnel network, The Wall Street Journal, citing Israeli military officials, reported that the cost of building 32 tunnels (a small fraction of what has since been uncovered) came to around $90 million.

More..

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/opinion/tunnels-gaza-hamas.html?unlocked_article_code=1.a08.YCsi.CrimHrUxLUwa&smid=url-share

free

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I was thinking about the border with Egypt: why can't supplies come from there?

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Meaning of Gaza's Tunnels - Bret Stephens, NYT (Original Post) question everything Aug 1 OP
Israel built a barrier wall drmeow Aug 1 #1
Are we talking about the JustAnotherGen Aug 1 #2
Egypt's border with Gaza c. February 16, 2024 OilemFirchen Aug 1 #3
I'm so confused JustAnotherGen Aug 1 #6
"Egypt isn't helpless." drmeow Aug 1 #4
Gaza is under the rule of Hamas. N/T lapucelle Aug 1 #5
Not at all JustAnotherGen Aug 1 #7
I understand drmeow Aug 1 #8
Nope JustAnotherGen Aug 1 #9
Hamas is responsible. Hamas can end this war today. lapucelle Aug 2 #10
"Arab states call on Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in unprecedented move" lapucelle Aug 2 #11

drmeow

(5,727 posts)
1. Israel built a barrier wall
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 01:50 PM
Aug 1

that is 8 meters high and extends 2 meters underground on the Egyptian border. There is a buffer zone that is 200 - 300 meters wide. There is also a wall on the Egyptian side. There is a single crossing that was designed for pedestrians. There's a whole Wikipedia page on it

JustAnotherGen

(36,730 posts)
2. Are we talking about the
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 04:21 PM
Aug 1

Gaza strip and Egyptian border crossing?

I mean - Egypt isn't helpless.

OilemFirchen

(7,286 posts)
3. Egypt's border with Gaza c. February 16, 2024
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 04:32 PM
Aug 1


Why did Egypt allow Israel to build this monstrosity?

drmeow

(5,727 posts)
4. "Egypt isn't helpless."
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 04:35 PM
Aug 1

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.

You seem to be suggesting that Egypt has some sort of responsibility to provide for a group of people who are under the "rule" of different sovereign nation. Is that not what you mean? If you mean something different, please clarify.

JustAnotherGen

(36,730 posts)
7. Not at all
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 05:58 PM
Aug 1

Egypt could open its border to allow aid in.

Also there's a war between Gaza lead by Hamas and Israel.

Hamas is the governing authority.

JustAnotherGen

(36,730 posts)
9. Nope
Fri Aug 1, 2025, 06:39 PM
Aug 1

Asking "Why aid can't get in through Egypt?

I think that's a reasonable question in the Jewish Group.

Asking that question does not absolve Israel of anything.

Just like I don't absolve Hamas for the October 7 Pogrom.

lapucelle

(20,608 posts)
10. Hamas is responsible. Hamas can end this war today.
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 12:20 PM
Aug 2

In fact, Hamas could have ended the war before it even began, but Hamas chose to sacrifice the people it rules with an iron fist while Hamas hid in tunnels filling their bellies with stolen food.

lapucelle

(20,608 posts)
11. "Arab states call on Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in unprecedented move"
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 12:25 PM
Aug 2

Even the Arab League is calling upon Hamas to end the suffering it has caused and continues to cause.

Arab states call on Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in unprecedented move

Arab and Muslim states including Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have for the first time issued a joint call for Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in the Gaza Strip as part of efforts to end the war in the territory.

The 22-member Arab League, the entire European Union and another 17 countries backed a declaration signed at a United Nations conference co-hosted by Saudi Arabia and France on Tuesday.

The meeting in New York aimed to address “the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine and the implementation of the Two-State Solution,” and the declaration lays out what steps the signatories think should be taken next.

“Governance, law enforcement and security across all Palestinian territory must lie solely with the Palestinian Authority, with appropriate international support,” the joint document read, adding that “in the context of ending the war in Gaza, Hamas must end its rule in Gaza and hand over its weapons to the Palestinian Authority, with international engagement and support, in line with the objective of a sovereign and independent Palestinian State.”

https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/30/middleeast/arab-league-hamas-gaza-israel-intl
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