General Discussion

King_Klonopin

(1,355 posts)

161. Atheists can be pretty quick to congratulate themselves on debate points ...

Fri Nov 13, 2015, 06:23 AM

Nov 2015

So, if I am intelligent, I am supposed to agree with his premise that asteroids and tornadoes
are absolute proof that God doesn't exist ??!!

Those things are evidence that there is chaos and entropy in the universe (terms he knows too well).
They fail to disprove God's existence any more than a flat tire or a head cold disprove God's existence.

Professor D. (astrophysics) paraphrases the tired old hack of an argument -- if God existed, there
would be perfect order and a complete absence of suffering in the natural universe.

If you ever studied chemistry, biochemistry and physiology and took a look at the macro and micro
precision of how this all works in concert, how can you conclude it is merely by random happenstance ?

Pardon me, if I fail to swoon. Thomas Aquinas made more convincing arguments than these.

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Neil deGrasse Tyson destroys argument for intelligent design [View all] eridani Nov 2015 OP

evidence, schmevidence. ya gotta believe! KG Nov 2015 #1

Well, faith IS a major part of religion. 7962 Nov 2015 #25

Faith is used to avoid critical thinking.U R told what to believe. bjobotts Nov 2015 #132

Thats the opposite of faith. 7962 Nov 2015 #146

Hey, watch it. I had some schmevidence with my steak the other night, loved it. randys1 Nov 2015 #118

low sodium, perfect. here's another health tip nilram Nov 2015 #136

Neil deGrasse Tyson is a national treasure. nt DLevine Nov 2015 #2

He really is hifiguy Nov 2015 #72

He gives me faith in humanity...get it, faith...me, humanity...yep randys1 Nov 2015 #120

It's very high praise! CrispyQ Nov 2015 #202

The thermodynamic argument behind Intelligent Design has a simple mathematical error. DetlefK Nov 2015 #3

I never heard that argument before. rogerashton Nov 2015 #6

Non-equilibrium processes are the latest research into the beginnings of life. DetlefK Nov 2015 #10

Yes, but doesn't even require infinite number of particles Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2015 #17

It would be interesting to do relativistic thermodynamics. DetlefK Nov 2015 #22

In addition to that, Earth is not a closed system hatrack Nov 2015 #35

Yeah, Mr. smartypants, well the sun just set. central scrutinizer Nov 2015 #128

Entropy is my favorite state, actually. Hortensis Nov 2015 #170

I think of it as a nuclear reactor that is 93 million miles away from the nearest elementary school eridani Nov 2015 #159

To quote the great MC Hawking whopis01 Nov 2015 #162

it is rooted in some rather gross assumptions... 0rganism Nov 2015 #206

Entropy is a statistical/mathematical attribute, rather than a physical one. DetlefK Nov 2015 #212

low relative to a rock, you mean 0rganism Nov 2015 #221

The smallest features in microprocessors are 15-20 nm. The smallest feature in an organism is <1nm. DetlefK Nov 2015 #226

I love listening to him Science. pinstikfartherin Nov 2015 #4

+1 Person 2713 Nov 2015 #43

if there is a god madokie Nov 2015 #5

"Man has rarely if ever dreamed up a god superior to himself." hobbit709 Nov 2015 #8

Well that sure is a great statement. AllyCat Nov 2015 #15

That's either Lazarus Long or Jubal Harshaw speaking from Robert A. Heinlein's typewriter ! Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2015 #18

Money quote: hifiguy Nov 2015 #74

I used to be LittleGirl Nov 2015 #7

I think there is a separation leftynyc Nov 2015 #14

Very brief and powerful statement. Many here wont understand it. 7962 Nov 2015 #28

imho, "spirituality" is an evolutionary holdover mopinko Nov 2015 #37

Disagree leftynyc Nov 2015 #44

i agree restorefreedom Nov 2015 #47

I'm sure it has leftynyc Nov 2015 #56

i never thought of that regarding judaism restorefreedom Nov 2015 #59

Agree leftynyc Nov 2015 #61

ugh. sad but probably true. nt restorefreedom Nov 2015 #62

And certainly some folks- like 12 steppers- are comfortable doing all sorts of semantic gymnastics Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #167

Yep, The opening scene of 2001 a Space Odyssey captured it quite nicely snooper2 Nov 2015 #182

Same here.. took years to find myself mountain grammy Nov 2015 #33

Of all the ways to divide people into two groups hifiguy Nov 2015 #76

Cosmos had a big impact on me as well. mountain grammy Nov 2015 #229

Unfortunately, that requires a couple of very uncomfortable admissions that theists aren't ready to Warpy Nov 2015 #106

What designed God? GeorgeGist Nov 2015 #9

Magic Man done it? caraher Nov 2015 #11

God always existed, because bible. Orrex Nov 2015 #13

It is far more plausible that a mechanistic universe hifiguy Nov 2015 #77

And even that seems implausible when you think about it. We're used to everything having... ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2015 #181

there is no time for god... snooper2 Nov 2015 #183

Supergod. n/t whopis01 Nov 2015 #163

K&R! stonecutter357 Nov 2015 #12

Prayer works better if you take the antibiotics. IHateTheGOP Nov 2015 #16

Would you like the Noah's Ark antibiotics or the ones that were intelligently designed? Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2015 #19

Being "created" by something was a way for early manking to make sense of the world. ladyVet Nov 2015 #20

You're in the finest of company. hifiguy Nov 2015 #79

I am proud to be in the company of thinking beings. ;) ladyVet Nov 2015 #156

Douglas Adams - FreedomRain Nov 2015 #154

Adams had so many wonderful and clever quotes. hifiguy Nov 2015 #210

We have a lot to learn as a species. AngryAmish Nov 2015 #21

That ain't right Nac Mac Feegle Nov 2015 #23

I gots a question. -none Nov 2015 #24

That never stops things like that from being spread around as truth! 7962 Nov 2015 #29

Maybe the quote is Travis_0004 Nov 2015 #125

... AngryAmish Nov 2015 #126

Another good one. But not as good as your LAST one! 7962 Nov 2015 #130

I can not get my head around that quote fasttense Nov 2015 #30

the only thing you're missing is that it isn't a real quote fishwax Nov 2015 #32

That ryan_cats Nov 2015 #42

It is a joke, yes. aidbo Nov 2015 #152

Why would you post something that clearly wrongly attributes a quote to someone? tabasco Nov 2015 #119

Are you new here? AngryAmish Nov 2015 #121

That's not an answer. tabasco Nov 2015 #169

You will get nothing, and long for it's absence. AngryAmish Nov 2015 #171

There is nothing wrong with me. tabasco Nov 2015 #177

It's a joke Takket Nov 2015 #142

Yet we think we can be stewards of the planet The2ndWheel Nov 2015 #26

How did life start? robersl Nov 2015 #27

And it also should have happened elsewhere 7962 Nov 2015 #31

Sooo. kwolf68 Nov 2015 #48

No, thats not what I said. Just that its not an absolute. 7962 Nov 2015 #63

I think he said we have no benevolent god. PassingFair Nov 2015 #92

If you believe in imaginary sky wizards then you will believe anything. hobbit709 Nov 2015 #54

If you dont believe in something, you'll fall for anything. 7962 Nov 2015 #64

The laws of nature that have been discovered in the scientific era hifiguy Nov 2015 #81

Not believing in "god" doesn't mean skepticscott Nov 2015 #165

Possibly the most idiotic piece of bumper sticker non-wisdom ever floated by the bs brigade. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #168

The "BS Brigade" is just as much those who rush to deride any who have a belief. 7962 Nov 2015 #173

Yeah facts and evidence make people cocky. Rex Nov 2015 #184

yet there is no evidence that a higher power doesnt exist. Enjoy your high horse. 7962 Nov 2015 #187

The rules of debate require those putting the affirmative case hifiguy Nov 2015 #219

you're joking, here, right? Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #223

What is "God" and where did it come from? nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2015 #186

Faith means you get to use magic to answer all your questions. Rex Nov 2015 #191

Irrelevant response. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #222

No, it should NOT have a place in any science curriculum. Not at all. 7962 Nov 2015 #224

Some would rather live at the shallow end of the pool. Rex Nov 2015 #185

If "seeing and touching" is what it takes for you to believe, 7962 Nov 2015 #188

You don't get it. Rex Nov 2015 #189

Oh, I get it. As I said before, enjoy your lofty perch above the rest of us! 7962 Nov 2015 #213

Lofty perch? I see you have no clue at all. Rex Nov 2015 #217

So of course you resort to insulting my education. Typical. 7962 Nov 2015 #225

lol - u think god is a sky wizard saturnsring Nov 2015 #129

Thats the favorite cute term used by the non believing folk 7962 Nov 2015 #131

CORRECTION: IMAGINARY sky wizard. hobbit709 Nov 2015 #137

Dude (or Dudette), we've only been looking for, what, forty years? ladyVet Nov 2015 #157

Who made the intelligent creator? fasttense Nov 2015 #34

Who set off the Big Bang? robersl Nov 2015 #39

You are Not a full creationist? So, you are taking the real ID position? fasttense Nov 2015 #53

Evidence for God robersl Nov 2015 #57

Yes I can prove there is NO God fasttense Nov 2015 #67

Evidence for God robersl Nov 2015 #71

It is not somehow, science can give you the play by play down to what the atoms are doing. Rex Nov 2015 #75

I'm not knocking science robersl Nov 2015 #78

Not at all hard to hash out. You have billions of years and trillions of objects colliding together Rex Nov 2015 #82

So robersl Nov 2015 #83

Hands? What are you talking about? Rex Nov 2015 #87

But now you're left with the harder problem of explaining where God came from ... GeorgeGist Nov 2015 #141

Your idea of evidence is really nothing but spin. fasttense Nov 2015 #228

One school of cosmological thought hifiguy Nov 2015 #80

Also the mere fact of thousands of religions in the world, compounded with all the unknown Rex Nov 2015 #89

Not for anyone who understands the basis of hifiguy Nov 2015 #90

I agree it should be a clue as big as their mind can wrap around the idea. Rex Nov 2015 #94

The problem arises when it can be shown hifiguy Nov 2015 #97

True, it goes deep to the core of their belief system. Rex Nov 2015 #99

I always come back to Carl Sagan, hifiguy Nov 2015 #101

Could not agree more! Rex Nov 2015 #111

A complex universe must have been designed by a complex intelligence. LiberalAndProud Nov 2015 #143

Yes, that's how I feel about the Big Bang robersl Nov 2015 #178

Except that we can observe evidence of a big bang. Now. Today. LiberalAndProud Nov 2015 #214

Emergent behavior. immoderate Nov 2015 #38

Smug answer, sloppy thinking robersl Nov 2015 #40

Emergent behavior is a way of describing what things do. immoderate Nov 2015 #46

Emergence is fascinating hifiguy Nov 2015 #96

I started with encounters with Conway's program, referenced in Peter Gleick's book on Chaos. immoderate Nov 2015 #109

Agree about Darwin. hifiguy Nov 2015 #112

No, one-cell living things have extremely complex cell structures NOW. jeff47 Nov 2015 #45

So when you say "Ta-da" robersl Nov 2015 #55

No, it's an example of how the more complex structures appeared. jeff47 Nov 2015 #60

Anthropomorphizing evolution? robersl Nov 2015 #65

So you don't know what the word "anthropomorphizing" means. jeff47 Nov 2015 #66

Hmm robersl Nov 2015 #68

No, you actually didn't cite any miracles. jeff47 Nov 2015 #69

that is what often hangs me up is the beginning of the beginning of the universe restorefreedom Nov 2015 #49

The problem is that you have a problem of infinite regress, something had to have caused that... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #110

for me it is more an interesting academic discussion restorefreedom Nov 2015 #115

The thing is that the Big Bang is practically the only gap left for the "God of the gaps" to occupy. Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #117

true, but the possibility also exists restorefreedom Nov 2015 #124

Something must have existed before the Big Bang NonMetro Nov 2015 #151

Nothing is created or destroyed, only changed. nt ladyVet Nov 2015 #158

The Big Bang, from what we can tell, is the literal beginning, there was no "before"... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #160

I believe most scientists won't agree with you, including Neil deGrasse Tyson. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #208

He argues for a multiverse, not an infinite universe, those are different things... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #209

Our Universe likely came from the same previous existence cpwm17 Nov 2015 #215

They could have triggered it maybe, but I doubt any information traveled from previous universes... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #216

Certainly details about the Multiverse are speculative cpwm17 Nov 2015 #220

The Argument from Personal Incredulity trotsky Nov 2015 #73

Please spare me the condescending babble robersl Nov 2015 #85

Did you look in a mirror when you said that? hobbit709 Nov 2015 #86

LOL no doubt... trotsky Nov 2015 #91

Good one robersl Nov 2015 #95

Do you know what a logical fallacy is? trotsky Nov 2015 #88

If robersl Nov 2015 #93

Let me help you. trotsky Nov 2015 #98

Really? robersl Nov 2015 #107

It is unfortunate you are unable to see your error. trotsky Nov 2015 #113

Can you expound on this please? opiate69 Nov 2015 #100

Mars and Venus robersl Nov 2015 #105

Well... opiate69 Nov 2015 #108

You seem to forget that life on Earth is fine tuned for conditions on Earth, not the other way... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #114

The "Finely-Tuned Universe" argument has been ongoing for a century now robersl Nov 2015 #179

The most important word in that uncredited excerpt: trotsky Nov 2015 #180

Hey, don't take it so hard robersl Nov 2015 #192

LOL!!! YOU are the one who thinks you have all the answers! nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2015 #193

LOL trotsky Nov 2015 #194

Let me help you robersl Nov 2015 #198

So you're telling me to take every question you've asked, trotsky Nov 2015 #199

Study on it robersl Nov 2015 #200

Probably not - I mean, I'm really dumb, according to you. Super dumb. trotsky Nov 2015 #201

I do not recall calling you dumb, and robersl Nov 2015 #203

Well then, with that admission you just sabotaged your entire argument. trotsky Nov 2015 #204

Even if that assertion is true as you excerpted it(uncredited I might add), I don't... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #207

There are millions of planets in this galaxy; many are at the right distance from their sun muriel_volestrangler Nov 2015 #172

Galactic jizz. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Nov 2015 #116

To get the general principles... gcomeau Nov 2015 #123

And an article on more recent thinking about the origins of cells, and the use of energy: muriel_volestrangler Nov 2015 #175

What an interesting article. Thanks! n/t trotsky Nov 2015 #196

Do you understand the depth of billions of years? Rex Nov 2015 #139

most everyone agrees that it was very improbable quaker bill Nov 2015 #227

Humans at the top of the food chain? mountain grammy Nov 2015 #36

Tao vs Zen Octafish Nov 2015 #41

Intelligent Design is hokem kwolf68 Nov 2015 #50

Loved Neil on with Bill Moyer speaking about Religion, Science and the Universe. Stellar Nov 2015 #51

That was a great segment. nt valerief Nov 2015 #52

There's fallacy in Tyson's argument too. hunter Nov 2015 #58

We have separate forums on this site devoted to discussing religion. BlueStater Nov 2015 #70

The segment is more about how religion affects politics and our valerief Nov 2015 #103

Listening to Tyson, Dawkins, or Lawrence Krauss hifiguy Nov 2015 #84

Commie randys1 Nov 2015 #102

Religion exists only because humans are afraid of death tabasco Nov 2015 #104

The philosophical fail is so strong, it's depressing. KittyWampus Nov 2015 #122

you have to assume that god wants you to live forever saturnsring Nov 2015 #127

I have yet to hear a single evidence-based argument for the existence of God n2doc Nov 2015 #133

How About This robersl Nov 2015 #145

Descartes would be proud of that tkmorris Nov 2015 #149

Thank you robersl Nov 2015 #176

Touché! Foiled by his own argument! LOL! nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2015 #195

let's make this weird! MisterP Nov 2015 #148

An intelligent designer does not have to be benevolent IronLionZion Nov 2015 #134

Adventures of God... hunter Nov 2015 #147

Please, enough with the bearded old man/God digs robersl Nov 2015 #174

Do you think it matters what God looks like? hunter Nov 2015 #190

No, it doesn't matter robersl Nov 2015 #197

Not necessarily - the True Believers have an answer for all this - LiberalElite Nov 2015 #135

It is my belief that there IS a creator. retrowire Nov 2015 #138

The man's got a point.... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2015 #140

Boom! Mic drop, blackspade Nov 2015 #144

Since we are discussing WOO OxQQme Nov 2015 #150

I don't believe we're important enough to have a creator. Humans are fairly close to being nothing. BlueJazz Nov 2015 #153

I love Neil DeGrasse Tyson! Initech Nov 2015 #155

Atheists can be pretty quick to congratulate themselves on debate points ... King_Klonopin Nov 2015 #161

We know that what one observes in chemistry, biochemistry and physiology cpwm17 Nov 2015 #205

Nicely put. hifiguy Nov 2015 #218

Actually those only disprove a benevolent god, however, the fact is that... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #211

They should actually call it Stupid Design eridani Nov 2015 #164

To exist is to exist somewhere Shankapotomus Nov 2015 #166

That's a good point. n/t cpwm17 Nov 2015 #230

Many of the main characters in the New Testament died miserable deaths Kaleva Nov 2015 #231