General Discussion

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)

260. Heartbreaking

Tue Mar 28, 2017, 04:51 PM

Mar 2017

Yep. Here in Jacksonville, Florida we're dealing with two recent deadly home invasions which took the lives of law-abiding, upstanding members of the community. Last February a man returned home from work to find a group of teens in his garage. They shot him dead and fled. They had been responsible for a string of burglaries in the area, stealing mostly electronic devices. Between the ages of 16-18, they'll never leave prison. Just last week a 62-year old school teacher was murdered in her home. Her car was stolen and later recovered. The perp is still on the loose. Her husband came home and found her body. I'm sure when they crack this case, we'll learn nothing much of value was taken.

So, yeah, I'm a little unnerved over home invasions here lately. I used to always believe that the people whose homes were invaded were probably drug dealers but lately, not so much anymore.

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Three burglars entered an Oklahoma home. The owners son opened fire with an AR-15, deputies say. [View all] riversedge Mar 2017 OP

And we thought they were barbaric in medeivel times... HopeAgain Mar 2017 #1

So what are people to do if someone breaks in with a knife? cpamomfromtexas Mar 2017 #2

Ditto exboyfil Mar 2017 #7

One with a knife and the other with brass knuckles lostnfound Mar 2017 #22

Back to the Future! HAB911 Mar 2017 #55

How do you know their intent was theft? ileus Mar 2017 #210

You're right Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #218

Theft is the least serious possible motive Amishman Mar 2017 #248

what's your plan? hide in the closet and hope nobody finds you? frankieallen Mar 2017 #235

If he shot them with an arrow or stabbed them with a knife xor Apr 2017 #566

One of the suspects was found in the driveway... ExciteBike66 Mar 2017 #3

The one outside was shot inside and flee after being shot Amishman Mar 2017 #73

Gotcha, thanks for the info! ExciteBike66 Mar 2017 #98

These home invasion stories usually unravel SecularMotion Mar 2017 #4

Yup...something sounds fishy here..... Bengus81 Mar 2017 #24

Not to worry, our resident gun-rights people will inform us of any such developments. Girard442 Mar 2017 #60

I can inform you that this story isn't unraveling. LisaL Mar 2017 #405

If they came for drugs I'd think they'd be armed better. NWCorona Mar 2017 #25

Is there any evidence to suggest that? synergie Mar 2017 #258

No. LisaL Mar 2017 #402

I'm a fervent gun control advocate bigtree Mar 2017 #5

I'm not a big gun control advocate metalbot Mar 2017 #9

Post removed Post removed Mar 2017 #47

Why the snark? Poster was merely expressing an opinion. Fla Dem Mar 2017 #80

One wonders, but apparently there had been recent burglaries in the area. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #255

We had high school students robbing residences in the daytime with Jim Beard Mar 2017 #440

I not sure how it matters if there was a connection. aikoaiko Mar 2017 #376

Reports now are the connection is that the female Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #377

you and me both.. i actually sleep with a loaded glock under my bed... samnsara Mar 2017 #40

I have a weekend home with a 900' driveway that has been broken into HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #58

Same here, gun control and all, only it's a semi-auto shotgun. Hortensis Mar 2017 #225

I would do the same! IMO anyone breaking into a home like that is not coming for coffee. n/t RKP5637 Mar 2017 #245

Well, if you call out you are armed and they don't turn and get out, one assumes armed and dangerous Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #271

We don't have enough evidence to form a reliable impression, but... Bucky Mar 2017 #52

Justified; but probably a sociopath that took pleasure in his license to murder 3 people Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #67

Yeah, but you don't know Bucky Mar 2017 #81

Civilized people are more afraid of taking a life than their life being taken Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #93

Do you have children? Marengo Mar 2017 #125

Does that matter? Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #132

Can you provide a yes or no answer? Marengo Mar 2017 #147

I like how you've just assumed the victim feels guiltless. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #151

"I don't need to have certain primitive biological impulses that accompany rearing of offspring" Warren DeMontague Mar 2017 #162

"This is what makes the western world so much better" LexVegas Mar 2017 #126

Civilized people are usually more concerend with defending their families when people synergie Mar 2017 #261

Thank you for that link. It was a great article to read Bucky Mar 2017 #374

Did you actually read the article you cite? Straw Man Mar 2017 #394

Civilized people NCDem777 Apr 2017 #483

Warning shots and aiming for legs? nil desperandum Mar 2017 #129

The military trains you to overcome empathy in the line of fire and the social conditioning Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #134

Wrong, wrong, completely and utterly wrong. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #141

Fight or flight is all about survival. Nothing unnatural about it at all. jmg257 Mar 2017 #145

It's perfectly natural NCDem777 Apr 2017 #484

NEVER shoot an intruder in the legs. Binkie The Clown Mar 2017 #184

I wasn't military trained Rowdyag Mar 2017 #378

Indeed.... nil desperandum Mar 2017 #383

Warning shots are illegal. Shooting at the legs is employing deadly force without justification. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #131

It doesn't matter if it's illegal. Not doing it means you WANT to kill a person. Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #135

Ridiculous. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #138

Sometimes there are good reasons to take a life Calculating Mar 2017 #216

Bullshit. You want to survive, or you want other family members to survive. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #265

You posted this upthread: yagotme Apr 2017 #491

You have no idea what you would do in that situation. Adrahil Mar 2017 #185

"Aim for the legs" is a Hollywoodism Oneironaut Mar 2017 #212

Have you ever been in a situation where your life was threatened? 58Sunliner Mar 2017 #252

If you are facing three you assume to be armed, you can't afford shooting for the legs. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #256

Aiming for the legs can be very deadly. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #269

You should brush up on your self defense laws. ManiacJoe Mar 2017 #311

"Maybe I'd kill one person from adrenaline but that's about it." Takket Mar 2017 #316

This is what we call 'projection'... Baconator Mar 2017 #353

I suspect drugs are involved TNLib Mar 2017 #366

Cops said that they were not HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #397

You suspect wrong. LisaL Mar 2017 #403

I agree with you. We had three in our area in the last year - in two of them the young woman home anneboleyn Mar 2017 #87

What is the point of living life so fearful and paranoid? kcr Mar 2017 #102

I have a fire extinguisher in my home. Go Vols Mar 2017 #174

Living Life IS the point. Not really a downside for most people in wanting to be prepared, or jmg257 Mar 2017 #177

So, the smoke detector companies, and the car companies, yagotme Apr 2017 #493

I don't know what you are saying. I am well aware that the chance of something like this happening anneboleyn Apr 2017 #520

Heartbreaking EL34x4 Mar 2017 #260

If they exchanged words janterry Mar 2017 #6

Exchanged words Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #12

You're probably right janterry Mar 2017 #13

Burglars are humans. Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #68

Do you live in a nice area ? Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #154

Humans can converse only if both sides consent to it. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #226

If they're armed with knives NCDem777 Apr 2017 #485

Well..... Adrahil Mar 2017 #186

I have no idea janterry Mar 2017 #231

What should they have done ? Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #8

They died doing what they loved superpatriotman Mar 2017 #16

They rolled the dice Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #18

ha!! Bucky Mar 2017 #53

Just like Elvis. AngryAmish Mar 2017 #111

Elvis loved pooping? Warren DeMontague Mar 2017 #165

Damn right! beaglelover Mar 2017 #176

THREE intruders? TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #10

Ditto. nt cwydro Mar 2017 #21

And gloves. I would have pooped my pants. What about Ma Barker redux? Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #257

Someone invaded your home. They aren't there to have coffee Thrill Mar 2017 #11

Shooting at them might get you killed too. Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #69

Thus the argument for 30 round magazines. ileus Mar 2017 #84

"He killed Bob AND Steve! I'm gonna kidnap him and torture him for 15 years now!" Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #97

So your argument is... Adrahil Apr 2017 #472

So could not doing so Renew Deal Mar 2017 #106

Yeah there's really no correct answer besides physically removing yourself from the situation Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #112

The real reason to have an alarm sarisataka Mar 2017 #114

Thank goodness 30 rounds magazines are standard meathead Apr 2017 #533

Have to agree in a case like this treestar Mar 2017 #360

Callous gunners will say you don't fire warning shots. I don't know. I can't see that the Hoyt Mar 2017 #14

I'm no fan of gun ownership, but I think we need to be careful with 'shot in the back' conclusions Kentonio Mar 2017 #29

If he's out in the front yard face down, homeowner probably shot him running. That's wrong. Hoyt Mar 2017 #34

Ah yeah, totally with you on the fleeing stuff being horrible. Kentonio Mar 2017 #50

He's not being honest about that. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #288

There is a difference in running to escape and running to take cover.... Jim Beard Mar 2017 #446

Could you link one of those discussions where DU members advocating the shooting of fleeing... Marengo Mar 2017 #63

Go to the Gungeon, there were plenty of them back when I was allowed to post there. Hoyt Mar 2017 #275

I didn't find any with an admittedly quick search. Do you recall the user names of DU members... Marengo Mar 2017 #282

They will not 'recall' any user names- it's just a Trump-like slur against their opponents friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #301

Without evidence, your claim is bullshit- and it's not our job to dig it up for you friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #312

Yeah, NRA and others pushing guns everywhere have proven to be such honorable souls. Hoyt Mar 2017 #313

Still no evidence? Like I said- it's bullshit friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #318

Can you give us names of DU members doing this? Marengo Mar 2017 #347

You'd have to check out the Gungeon, especially those who have been booted from DU over Hoyt Mar 2017 #352

If you wish to be regarded with credibility, I would suggest you add proof to the posts in which... Marengo Mar 2017 #358

Warning shots are NOT recommended by legal and self-defense experts, and are prosecutable... Marengo Mar 2017 #65

And "self-defense experts" are in the business of teaching people how to kill, not Hoyt Mar 2017 #127

Can you provide cites by legal experts and/or law enforcement which recommend and advocate... Marengo Mar 2017 #143

Clearly you have never taken sarisataka Mar 2017 #152

Bull, rest of course teaching how to get away murder and intimidation and what to say to police Hoyt Mar 2017 #272

Have you taken a course? Marengo Mar 2017 #280

Have you taken one by the NRA, most gunners take the NRA course. Guess the like listening Hoyt Mar 2017 #294

That's a steaming pile of Colonism: friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #303

The instructor for my cwp class is NRA certified, and said nothing like what you claim. I noticed... Marengo Mar 2017 #345

You didn't answer my question. Have you taken such a course? Marengo Mar 2017 #346

I took the State of North Carolina course, authored by the NC Department of Justice. benEzra Mar 2017 #425

"gunner"? That is exactly the same kind of insult as "n*gger". gilbert sullivan Apr 2017 #544

Welcome to DU. yagotme Apr 2017 #563

You could have simply sarisataka Mar 2017 #286

Just out of curiosity- why is your photo collection racially segregated? friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #304

That's racism, something the majority of white wing gunners are quite familiar. Hoyt Mar 2017 #315

Yes, it is -and in this case the racism is yours friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #317

What percentage of white gun owners are racist? Marengo Mar 2017 #348

Well, since 70% of gun owners are right wing, that should put you pretty close. Hoyt Mar 2017 #351

Things that make one go, Hmmmmmmm HAB911 Mar 2017 #354

Where does the 70% figure come from? Marengo Mar 2017 #359

Ex recto... friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #436

Despite your claimed familiarity sarisataka Mar 2017 #368

Didn't stop you from casting all kinds of shade on him in your first posts. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #289

This one hit close to home, Hoyt? X_Digger Mar 2017 #322

Xdigger, your gun cache not keeping you occupied.? You know the context of that post. Hoyt Mar 2017 #325

Are you a former robber? Marengo Mar 2017 #349

What do you think? You too should not be carrying gunz in public. Hoyt Mar 2017 #350

You said: "As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out, especially police." Marengo Mar 2017 #356

Yes, because you gunners looking for a rationale to shoot away claimed that if a robber closed Hoyt Mar 2017 #361

Interesting. Would you be willing to share your robbery expertise and experiences? Did you... Marengo Mar 2017 #362

Looking forward to your response to my questions in post 362! Marengo Mar 2017 #390

I've already answered. Apparently you are too obtuse to get it. Hoyt Mar 2017 #399

My questions in that post are specific to your... Marengo Mar 2017 #410

Yes, I told you where "robber" came from. What the heck is wrong with you besides your Hoyt Mar 2017 #421

I'm asking if you are willing to share details about... Marengo Mar 2017 #434

Since you're back in this thread, how about answering my questions in post#362? Marengo Apr 2017 #514

I am licensed by my state of residence to do just that, and now I can clearly understand why... Marengo Mar 2017 #364

George Zimmerman has a license too. Hoyt Mar 2017 #365

Is every license holder in the USA comparable to George Zimmerman? What about residents... Marengo Mar 2017 #367

I think they all carry pretty much for the same reason. Don't you? Hoyt Mar 2017 #369

What reason is that? Marengo Mar 2017 #370

What reason is that? Marengo Mar 2017 #391

Next time you get ready to strap one on, ask yourself. Hoyt Mar 2017 #398

I'm asking you to explain what you think the... Marengo Mar 2017 #408

Because gunners can't handle the truth. Hoyt Mar 2017 #409

What "truth" is that? Marengo Mar 2017 #411

What "truth" is that? Why won't you reply? Marengo Mar 2017 #435

"You can't handle the truth." yagotme Apr 2017 #495

What "truth" is that? Marengo Apr 2017 #515

Probably the reason is that there are some christx30 Apr 2017 #545

What happened to your reliance on canned beans and bicycle tires? n/t oneshooter Apr 2017 #535

Sounds like the home invaders were serious bad guys but... Girard442 Mar 2017 #15

I'm pretty sure the neighbors are just grateful TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #20

He didn't "smoke anyone he sees" cwydro Mar 2017 #23

By smoking anyone he sees... Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #70

Yes he should have invited them in for tea and biscuits BannonsLiver Mar 2017 #49

Perhaps he could have offered them an interest-free microloan. Marengo Mar 2017 #77

You break into my house you're getting "smoked" as well. WoonTars Mar 2017 #109

Do we have any evidence that the shooter thinks that way? Adrahil Apr 2017 #473

Seems a clear case of very bad decision making by the deceased, and their driver. jmg257 Mar 2017 #17

Obviously a criminal who deserves to be prosecuted, but.. Kentonio Mar 2017 #31

That is somethng, isn't it? And she turned herself in. Don't think she knew what was headed her way. jmg257 Mar 2017 #36

She dropped off armed people she knew were there to commit a crime. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2017 #42

She should be charged with being an accomplice to a robbery Kentonio Mar 2017 #51

People who commit felonies are responsible for the outcome of the felonies. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2017 #56

It's completely contrary to any reasonable intepretation of justice Kentonio Mar 2017 #59

It's unreasonable to think that armed home invasion will result in death? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2017 #62

Absolutely I would. She wasn't there, she didn't pull a trigger or stab anyone. Kentonio Mar 2017 #123

You've confused felony murder with the War On Drugs(TM) AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #156

No, it's part of the same puritanical attitutes Kentonio Mar 2017 #195

Self Defense has NOTHING to do with Justice. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #221

Err, I think we're talking at cross purposes here. Kentonio Mar 2017 #223

She participated in the crime. The crime resulted in deaths. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #224

I would disagree fundamentally even if they had gone there and committed murder. Kentonio Mar 2017 #227

Occupational Hazard. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #228

You would disagree even if "they" committed murder? TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #277

There's a reason for 'accessory to' crimes, and this is it. Kentonio Mar 2017 #290

And there is a reason this would not fit any accessory statutes. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2017 #297

They went there ARMED to invade a home. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2017 #295

Look we clearly disagree completely, so let's just leave it at that. Kentonio Mar 2017 #331

Been That Way Forever Though ProfessorGAC Mar 2017 #239

If a driver takes 3 robbers to a bank... Baconator Mar 2017 #355

Yep, they're the only one that commited murder. Kentonio Mar 2017 #400

Holy shit... Baconator Mar 2017 #407

Sure, it's 'nuts' that people should only be held responsible for things they've actually done.. Kentonio Mar 2017 #437

So a concentration camp guard would be blameless? Amishman Apr 2017 #572

I actually find that example a very complicated one to answer. Kentonio Apr 2017 #573

And it wasn't just themselves that were threatened, yagotme Apr 2017 #575

If other cases where this has happened are any guide Jake Stern Mar 2017 #64

And what if it turned out she had been coerced into it? Kentonio Mar 2017 #124

Very real possibility Jake Stern Mar 2017 #246

And then she might have to have gone home to the same area they were all from afterwards Kentonio Mar 2017 #267

Why wouldn't she be able to fight the charge? AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #291

Because as someone said above Kentonio Mar 2017 #438

Then refuse the deal. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #443

Because innocent people are never found guilty? Kentonio Mar 2017 #444

Because of plea bargaining AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #447

From what has been reported, you are way off track. LisaL Mar 2017 #413

It doesn't matter what the details of this case are Kentonio Mar 2017 #439

She drove three kids over to rob a house, and she probably picked the target. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #259

No disrespect intended, but there are a lot of assumptions there. Kentonio Mar 2017 #270

Why would she turn herself in? Not much of an assumption, really. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #273

Felony Murder Rule Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #319

Did she 'have to know that'? Kentonio Mar 2017 #332

Actually some other countries have similar laws Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #335

Actually.. Kentonio Mar 2017 #336

You should reread that Wikipedia link you copied and pasted from Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #337

You are quite correct, I mistakenly though the law had been changed a while ago. Kentonio Mar 2017 #442

"Guess who also has the highest murder rates.." EX500rider Mar 2017 #418

Actually, Australia still has this in legal codes, so it's not just the USA. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #423

She (getaway car driver) got charged with 3 counts of 1st degree murder HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #43

That said, she did okay compared to her passangers Bucky Mar 2017 #86

There's growing support for the AR-15 as a home defense weapon. EL34x4 Mar 2017 #324

There are no warning shots if you break into my house. nt LexVegas Mar 2017 #19

Same here! Come into my house like that and all bets are off. NWCorona Mar 2017 #26

You are supposed say excuse me while I whip this out (while leering at the 3 guys in black) HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #46

This is the nil desperandum Mar 2017 #118

Agreed, so best not to break in in the first place. (nt) bekkilyn Mar 2017 #139

I have a small handgun for self-defense. .. Kittycow Mar 2017 #27

What about your family? Your kids? hack89 Mar 2017 #41

Exiting might be a bad move as well exboyfil Mar 2017 #54

Just me in the back bedroom. Kittycow Mar 2017 #128

I'd likely do the same thing. If I had that kind of weaponry. Crunchy Frog Mar 2017 #28

Self-defense get the red out Mar 2017 #30

This makes sense nil desperandum Mar 2017 #121

Makes sense to me too bekkilyn Mar 2017 #187

Itsn't gun control Gun Saftey with government mandates. Jim Beard Apr 2017 #469

True - I don't see what is liberal about the idea that criminals should have impunity. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #266

Bang bang Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #32

There is only one moral to this story. Saboburns Mar 2017 #33

I'm tired of hearing accounts of families liquid diamond Mar 2017 #35

Yes. Ditto Metsie Casey Mar 2017 #39

Where do you hear those accounts? Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #72

Their door was the one they found that was unlocked... LexVegas Mar 2017 #74

Ricky Gray intended to murder people an planned as such Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #91

"I'm tired of hearing accounts of families being kidnapped, tortured, raped, and then murdered.... LexVegas Mar 2017 #105

Google the Wichita Massacre Yupster Mar 2017 #305

I know of one that happened in a town I lived in nearby. Jim Beard Apr 2017 #478

"Could be?" TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #281

Bullshit. You think home invasions and murder don't happen in real life? liquid diamond Mar 2017 #148

No one fires warning shots. former9thward Mar 2017 #37

I agree, but... Bucky Mar 2017 #57

If the report is accurate... ADX Mar 2017 #38

The shooting may have been justified, the young man was probably AJT Mar 2017 #44

The real tragedy here GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #45

If you look at the pictures of the house in news reports, it seems like a really well off area HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #48

No doubt GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #61

Great post. Kentonio Mar 2017 #191

Post removed Post removed Mar 2017 #66

Well then these perps were perfect game...figure they would know better. jmg257 Mar 2017 #76

That kind of stereotype about us Southerners DFW Mar 2017 #89

Well that's fine and dandy if I don't share my opinion with rightwingers and just post it on Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #94

DU is publicly indexed on search engines and accessible to view by anyone. And they are watching. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #293

Post removed Post removed Mar 2017 #107

there are some nasty stereotypes of northerners too Kali Mar 2017 #171

That's not a progressive. nt LexVegas Mar 2017 #116

What utter tripe. nt cwydro Mar 2017 #146

I hope you are making an attempt at a joke. (nt) bekkilyn Mar 2017 #161

You might want to delete that nasty bigotry. Kali Mar 2017 #167

South of what? Oregon? Go Vols Mar 2017 #189

Can you provide the research h data to back that claim? Marengo Mar 2017 #193

Know a guy that shot an intruder and killed him. safeinOhio Mar 2017 #71

That's an actual good point Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #75

Unfortunately good home security costs a lot more than a gun Amishman Mar 2017 #88

My house was broken into HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #95

While better than nothing, the alarm and police response time would not help if you are home Amishman Mar 2017 #100

Exactly HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #104

The problem, as I see it, is what are you going COLGATE4 Mar 2017 #339

Use to be married to a cop safeinOhio Mar 2017 #433

Yeah that makes sense too. Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #96

Many people have both. Alarms are a great "surprise," but the police respond VERY SLOWLY to anneboleyn Mar 2017 #99

I think people have become numb to the alarm noise Jonny Appleseed Mar 2017 #101

I remember the police at that time of increased security systems being installed, responded to Jim Beard Apr 2017 #479

I don't know Yupster Mar 2017 #306

+1. Hoyt Mar 2017 #276

Safe rooms are an Upper Class luxury. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #278

Mine is a closet safeinOhio Mar 2017 #284

A closet isn't a safe room. A safe room requires reinforced walls and door. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #285

Or a closet with safeinOhio Mar 2017 #298

Wooden door I take it. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #323

Bet it would stop safeinOhio Mar 2017 #328

Depends on the door. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #329

How does that goosegun deploy in the closet? Hangingon Apr 2017 #506

I'd love to know where I could get two cameras, two fortified doors, alarms, and a safe room benEzra Mar 2017 #430

"Burglars" says WaPo, but the local story says intruders. Orsino Mar 2017 #78

Laws aren't stupid get the red out Mar 2017 #103

Yes, laws are stupid. Orsino Mar 2017 #113

Day in court get the red out Mar 2017 #115

Yep. Laws are stupid... Orsino Mar 2017 #122

I refer you to my earlier post... Baconator Mar 2017 #363

"Laws are made by people, people who are often stupid." yagotme Apr 2017 #499

There's a pithier version: Orsino Apr 2017 #502

She *recruited* three people, two of them minors, to conduct an armed home invasion robbery. benEzra Mar 2017 #426

Hopefully she turns her life around HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #427

I agree, and she'll certainly have time to reflect. benEzra Mar 2017 #429

Home invaders don't typically get much protection from the law. Your home, your castle. jmg257 Mar 2017 #150

Stories don't say that anything was stolen. Orsino Mar 2017 #163

Nothing stolen? I wonder why. Seems they didn't make it too far passed breaking through the door. jmg257 Mar 2017 #168

The witnesses to anything nefarious are likely dead. Orsino Mar 2017 #192

Yes they are, though the home owners are there too. The AR was suboptimal?! 3-0 would say otherwise. jmg257 Mar 2017 #199

The fact that one of the invaders was injured, but managed to escape and expire outside tells me AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #233

Good point! jmg257 Mar 2017 #238

It tells us no such thing. n/t Orsino Mar 2017 #387

Absent any claim he fired at him from the window, it does. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #404

Absent any such information, it doesn't. n/t Orsino Mar 2017 #415

Firearms in the home should NOT be readily available for home defense? Marengo Mar 2017 #202

That doesn't follow. Orsino Mar 2017 #388

Wrong again. Straw Man Mar 2017 #412

Not wrong at all. Orsino Mar 2017 #414

I'll ask again. Straw Man Mar 2017 #417

That's for pros, and offensive use in home invasion. Orsino Mar 2017 #450

Doubling down on wrong? Straw Man Mar 2017 #453

"Big magazines are a definite plus, if one's goal is to make sure all the casualties are on.... EX500rider Apr 2017 #509

When one doesn't seriously expect a combat situation to develop. Orsino Apr 2017 #529

If someone breaks into your house, your job isn't to go room to room and clear it. benEzra Mar 2017 #428

A rifle is definitely to be preferred at range with open fields of fire. Orsino Mar 2017 #451

I believe these people have extensive training and they.... Jim Beard Apr 2017 #480

Pistols vs. rifles. Straw Man Apr 2017 #482

You are assuming you are the only one at home. What about the children, are Jim Beard Apr 2017 #488

In this case, the man was home alone. Straw Man Apr 2017 #489

This case would seem to suggest the AR-15 is very effective for home/self defense, if the... Marengo Mar 2017 #204

You have no idea what you are talking about. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #232

An AR-15 is a suboptimal weapon for home defense??? HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #240

So, definitely suboptimal. Orsino Mar 2017 #389

Shotguns, which are always recommended, are even worse HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #393

Three criminals against one homeowner TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #283

Not that I wouldnt do the same thing, But this story doesnt pass the smell test..... Old Vet Mar 2017 #211

Yeah, shitty situation. Orsino Mar 2017 #217

So given the actual outcome sarisataka Mar 2017 #220

Self Defense has NOTHING to do with Justice. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #234

Except that killing rather precludes any other form of justice. Orsino Mar 2017 #392

When humanity finds a way to reliably halt an attacker without killing them AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #401

Or reliably raise children to adulthood free of poverty and drug addiction. Orsino Mar 2017 #416

These kids did not appear to suffer from either poverty or drug addiction HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #419

Perhaps neither directly nor indirectly. Orsino Mar 2017 #448

I would say 'useful for situations where holistic solutions are unworkable'. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #431

"Lawful" is not the end of a conversation. Orsino Mar 2017 #449

I don't second-guess victims. If the response is lawful, it is by definition moral. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #455

The shooting victims deserve a thought. Orsino Mar 2017 #456

I think they should be second guessed, and a grand jury is the proper venue for that. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #457

There are multiple levels of second-guessing. Orsino Mar 2017 #459

Turns out the getaway driver never heard the phrase 'never talk to the police'. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #462

There were no shooting victims in this case sarisataka Mar 2017 #461

I guess no one shot them. Orsino Mar 2017 #464

The victim shot them sarisataka Mar 2017 #465

(There can be more than one victim.) Orsino Apr 2017 #477

I think what you are trying to say is this: yagotme Apr 2017 #564

We just don't know whether or not there was good justification for the shooter's killing 3 people. Orsino Apr 2017 #567

That's pretty much of what I was saying in my post. yagotme Apr 2017 #570

We don't have to side with anyone based on such incomplete information. Orsino Apr 2017 #571

On the information that has been provided, yagotme Apr 2017 #574

Well, heck. I guess if we can't choose sides based on incomplete nformation... Orsino Apr 2017 #576

As I stated in my post, yagotme Apr 2017 #577

Supposedly, at least one of the intruders was armed. Orsino Apr 2017 #579

I heard brass knuckles and a knife were recovered at the scene from the perps, yagotme Apr 2017 #580

In Texas if you are found to be oneshooter Apr 2017 #548

Why? Based on the information available, everything worked as expected. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #229

Now that more facts are out, do you stand by your uninformed opinion? onenote Mar 2017 #381

I have no sympathy for criminals and would do the same if some one broke into my house beachbum bob Mar 2017 #79

The AR makes an excellent HD firearm. ileus Mar 2017 #82

Depends on the rounds used and the training of the owner. NWCorona Mar 2017 #120

The best approach is to shelter in place, call out a verbal warning, and call 911. benEzra Mar 2017 #309

You invade a home that is occupied, you get what you get jeanmarc Mar 2017 #83

No sympathy for the Devil. Break-in, armed gang of thugs----Should WinkyDink Mar 2017 #85

I can't fault the owner nini Mar 2017 #90

The Cheshire, Connecticut home invasion murders changed my ideas about this forever. anneboleyn Mar 2017 #92

I hear you. LexVegas Mar 2017 #108

And there was this one in DC Crabby Appleton Mar 2017 #158

I just provided a link on that story too. That poor family. liquid diamond Mar 2017 #222

This is why we need a database sarisataka Mar 2017 #110

Nonsense. linuxman Mar 2017 #117

I would have done the same Victor_c3 Mar 2017 #119

.223 Remington with civilian loads is about the least penetrating of all effective rounds. benEzra Mar 2017 #310

Warning shots are illegal. Full stop. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #130

I was the victim of a home invasion roughly 9 months ago Heddi Mar 2017 #133

What you describe is my worst nightmare. I have 2 daughters.... LexVegas Mar 2017 #136

we had a firearm Heddi Mar 2017 #137

I am glad you came out ok. LexVegas Mar 2017 #175

Get a good revolver. Those don't jam. NWCorona Mar 2017 #205

we went to the gun store Heddi Mar 2017 #208

Thank you! LOL Lib Mar 2017 #140

This!!!! hamsterjill Mar 2017 #190

I'm glad you and your family are OK. raccoon Mar 2017 #196

Exactly. Heddi Mar 2017 #254

This is my worst nightmare for me and my family... tallahasseedem Mar 2017 #385

So sorry that you had to go through that. I'm glad you are here. 58Sunliner Mar 2017 #253

Glad you survived, hope the trauma gets better. I know a guy who killed three. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #262

are we supposed to be mad at the homeowner, here? Warren DeMontague Mar 2017 #142

Apparently to some the homeowner was a blood thirsty savage that couldn't wait to kill tammywammy Mar 2017 #144

But, but... GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #180

Some here seem to think so Egnever Mar 2017 #149

In OK, illegal guns (used in a crime) are as unlawful as illegal knives or brass knuckles HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #169

If 3 masked guys dressed in black smashed through my back door, I'd be inclined Vinca Mar 2017 #153

As would I. greytdemocrat Mar 2017 #357

I hate guns, but what was frogmarch Mar 2017 #155

"Warning shots"? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2017 #157

I believe it's illegal in Michigan to fire warning shots. Kaleva Mar 2017 #198

It's likely illegal in every state, if not explicitly, it would be used as evidence that AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #236

Something seems off. Why would the driver turn herself in? TexasBushwhacker Mar 2017 #159

Sometimes people do it for leniency HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #166

She knows why she dropped the three off...then gets arrested. Not sure she has some secret jmg257 Mar 2017 #172

She probably doesn't want the swat team coming looking for her. NWCorona Mar 2017 #201

She expects the family of at least one of the dead boys to seek revenge. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #263

I'm sure there was evidence connecting them to her Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #321

Defsense against home invasion is one thing, this is murder obamanut2012 Mar 2017 #160

You have a link to that? Report I read says he was shot inside and tried to run out. jmg257 Mar 2017 #164

Link please. tammywammy Mar 2017 #181

Actually reports say that he was shot in the house and collapsed in the driveway. Nt NWCorona Mar 2017 #200

Where did you learn this? ileus Mar 2017 #206

Please don't make up facts. It's bad form. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #237

Well, that was embarrassing Baconator Mar 2017 #371

Masked people had the option of weighing possible outcomes before smashing their way in luvMIdog Mar 2017 #170

Ah, so AR-15s ARE effective for home defense after all. Marengo Mar 2017 #173

Yes Calculating Mar 2017 #183

Well, just as long as you're happy about it. (nt) Paladin Mar 2017 #194

Would be interesting to know how many rounds were fired. Marengo Mar 2017 #215

I believe I read somewhere, 12. nt yagotme Apr 2017 #504

No tears here for the home invaders Calculating Mar 2017 #178

Having a hard time feeling bad about this. Adrahil Mar 2017 #179

I favor gun control. I hate violence. And I don't know all the facts in the case, but... Binkie The Clown Mar 2017 #182

As American as cherry pie. MrScorpio Mar 2017 #188

self-defense-these three punks got themselves killed nt geek tragedy Mar 2017 #197

Wait just a goddamned minute Blue_Tires Mar 2017 #203

It's a game she decided to play...she would have mashed ileus Mar 2017 #209

I thought the law wasn't supposed to rule based Blue_Tires Mar 2017 #213

All of that MAY be useful in her defense at trial. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #242

This has been settled law for a very long time hack89 Mar 2017 #243

Is it always applied, though? Blue_Tires Mar 2017 #247

In most felony murder statutes, the crimes it applies to are limited and defined hack89 Mar 2017 #250

It's up to the prosecution but they generally live to use it Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #320

IIRC, Couch was committing a misdemeanor (driving while intoxicated) when he killed the 4 people. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #334

That is the law in most states GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #244

Felony murder case law has been established since the 19th century. NWCorona Mar 2017 #219

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. AtheistCrusader Mar 2017 #241

Yes, and deservedly so. You have an adult telling kids to go commit a violent entry. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #264

Felony Murder, a common law principle. NutmegYankee Mar 2017 #274

Yep. leftyladyfrommo Mar 2017 #314

Some reports indicate she was the one who planned the burglary. Petrushka Mar 2017 #382

Yep- it appears she planned it land chose the house Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #384

Various little local news reports here HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #386

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Give the kid a medal! Oneironaut Mar 2017 #207

I am on the home owner's side. Lunabell Mar 2017 #214

Just curious sarisataka Mar 2017 #230

You take your life into your hands when you break and enter. 58Sunliner Mar 2017 #249

They call it "make my day"? louis-t Mar 2017 #251

I'm a big gun control advocate. I won't lose any sleep over what happened in this situation. stevenleser Mar 2017 #268

If you break into my house TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2017 #287

No, I meant the robbers will shoot everyone they see if they believe everyone is armed stevenleser Mar 2017 #296

You are arguing against a position no one here has taken friendly_iconoclast Mar 2017 #299

I'm not arguing and I never said anyone took that position. stevenleser Mar 2017 #308

Burglers don't seem to take things to that type of conclusion Amishman Mar 2017 #395

Might get caught for Burglary is different motivation than "might be shot dead" stevenleser Mar 2017 #396

If we're not secure in our own homes, we've lost everything bucolic_frolic Mar 2017 #279

I hope some folks in here will be inspired by this thread Morris64 Mar 2017 #292

I live in a high property crime area marlakay Mar 2017 #300

Broken Arrow isnt remotely rural and is a rich town by Olahoma standards. Kacy Mar 2017 #302

Some decades ago, two robbers attempted to break into my grandmother's apartment. Tatiana Mar 2017 #307

Better Call Saul exboyfil Mar 2017 #326

This is a very strange story. underthematrix Mar 2017 #327

The deceased have been identified EL34x4 Mar 2017 #330

Max Cook, the driver's 16 year old boyfriend describes himself thusly on FB HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #340

Later articles say he is 18. Some say 19. LisaL Mar 2017 #379

Yep, 19 as of late HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #380

She already has 3 kids. LisaL Mar 2017 #406

Link to BBC nitpicker Mar 2017 #333

Looks like the getaway driver might be a pedophile also HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #338

Shooter was a college student studying criminal justice HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #341

I knew someone who was killed by home intruders LibraLiz1973 Mar 2017 #342

All were shot once each inside, one was able to get outside HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #343

Driver seems to have 3 kids under 3 years old HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #344

New details- 911 audio released and details on the females involvement Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #372

More interesting than that HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #373

I didn't see that detail until you mentioned it and I went looking Lee-Lee Mar 2017 #375

They have identified the person that the driver called from McDonald's (where she went after) HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #420

If you choose to read his FB, past all the girls mourning their friends and him cursing out others HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #422

He is not the brightest star in the firmament. EllieBC Mar 2017 #452

well I don't think people should have AR 15s unless they are police Abu Pepe Mar 2017 #424

Here's the thing. Straw Man Mar 2017 #441

he could have defended his home with a pump or semi auto 12 G W/ #1 shot Abu Pepe Mar 2017 #454

Shotgun myths. Straw Man Mar 2017 #458

Semi shotgun is less reliable than an AR15 unless you spend 3x the cost of an AR15 HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #460

An AR or a Tavor/AUG/Mini-14 are centerfire .22's; a 12-gauge is .729. Big difference in recoil. benEzra Mar 2017 #463

As others have said, you are pretty much 100% wrong Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #467

I think pellet gun would have been sufficient against these guys, who supposedly had a knife and Hoyt Apr 2017 #476

Lethal weapons. Straw Man Apr 2017 #481

No gun advocate, I'm claiming there was no evidence they were in that house to kill anyone. Hoyt Apr 2017 #486

Would you be willing to stake your life on that? Straw Man Apr 2017 #490

Didn't read all that BS. If you are going to "impute" the worst to anyone walking down the street, Hoyt Apr 2017 #496

Anyone walking down the street? Not at all. Straw Man Apr 2017 #503

Because I read the first part and though it was BS. Fact is, the son will not be charged Hoyt Apr 2017 #507

You feel justified in commenting on things you haven't read. Straw Man Apr 2017 #512

I guarantee, there is nothing a gun fancier is going to say that I haven't heard hundreds of times Hoyt Apr 2017 #518

Nice dodge. Straw Man Apr 2017 #525

I agree. Seems as we have advocates for AR15's since it killed all of them instead of Jim Beard Apr 2017 #487

A pistol reduces mortality and incapacitates rather than kills? Marengo Apr 2017 #510

What was the knife for, Hoyt? linuxman Apr 2017 #492

If it was in his pocket, it could have been a boy scout knife. I suspect most of the Hoyt Apr 2017 #497

Yeah. And the brass knuckles were probably just there in case the robbers linuxman Apr 2017 #500

I bet some of our gunners here carry similar implements in their urban warfare pants. Hoyt Apr 2017 #501

Did you carry a knife while committing robbery? Marengo Apr 2017 #513

A machete, it made gunners mess their pants and cower. Hoyt Apr 2017 #519

How did that make you feel? Straw Man Apr 2017 #527

Since it never happened, can't say. How does fondling your guns, strapping one on to go to Hoyt Apr 2017 #528

Oh, so you lied? Or was it an attempt at humor? Straw Man Apr 2017 #540

Clever...I if that were true, you would most likely not be in any condition to conspicuously Marengo Apr 2017 #538

If someone has a knife and you have a pellet gun Codeine Apr 2017 #494

Not if the knife isn't in their hand and they are looking to kill me. That does not appear Hoyt Apr 2017 #498

I'm not a gun person. Codeine Apr 2017 #521

So you are OK with several policemen shooting a mentally ill person at 20 feet with a knife when Hoyt Apr 2017 #522

Of course I'm not. But I'm intelligent enough Codeine Apr 2017 #523

Actually, they are quite similar and your typical gunner will support the shooter in both cases. Hoyt Apr 2017 #524

Excellent points Hoyt! I have been wanting to make the same comparison but got caught up in other th Jim Beard Apr 2017 #546

Good Point, if they were not expecting anyone, they would not have the knife out rather Jim Beard Apr 2017 #547

If they were not expecting anyone sarisataka Apr 2017 #551

They wanted to be like ZORRO. Jim Beard Apr 2017 #553

No one has ever been killed with a knife? Marengo Apr 2017 #505

Let me guess, you are a gun fancier? Knife, rock, fists, scary people, etc., are all Hoyt Apr 2017 #508

Was Tiffany Ferguson tickled to death in Nashville Tennessee? Looks like she was knifed to death... Marengo Apr 2017 #511

Typical NRA BS. 22 people were killed by a knife in China. It doesn't matter, if there were no crime Hoyt Apr 2017 #517

In other words, knife armed thieves are not harmless. I appreciate your acknowledgement... Marengo Apr 2017 #537

People with perception problems should not be toting guns in public. Hoyt Apr 2017 #539

Who are you referring to? Marengo Apr 2017 #542

"Need to" or "want to"...what's amazing is you can jmg257 Apr 2017 #552

Every time I see the subject line of this thread in GD, I immediately tblue37 Mar 2017 #432

The driver did an interview for the news HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #445

There seems to be an argument that one should use the minimum amount of force needed HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #466

The only thing that really seems legitimately debateable is the charge against the driver Warren DeMontague Apr 2017 #468

I do. Sometimes society must ensure laws for all people for the greater good. Fluke a Snooker Apr 2017 #470

What jail sentence sarisataka Apr 2017 #471

... Warren DeMontague Apr 2017 #475

"see video below"- a clip from Trading Places? Warren DeMontague Apr 2017 #474

So, what's the problem? The kids just wanted to liberalhistorian Apr 2017 #516

I hate myself for having to say this, but the laws are written to protect the homeowner's napi21 Apr 2017 #526

Out of curiosity... Orrex Apr 2017 #530

On the same note Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #531

Is it the same note, though? Orrex Apr 2017 #532

I'm talking about the overall reaction not just one specific aspect Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #534

Ah, I see. Orrex Apr 2017 #536

Exactly the opposite HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #558

Yes indeed. They're portrayed as good, fresh-faced kids who made a bad choice Orrex Apr 2017 #559

Is there a specific black teen that you are speaking of? HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #560

Trayvon Martin is the most obvious example Orrex Apr 2017 #561

I totally get why the son "smoked" the intruders steve2470 Apr 2017 #541

What we know: a timeline of the Wagoner County triple homicide steve2470 Apr 2017 #543

Thanks for posting the newspaper link. I had mentioned earlier Jim Beard Apr 2017 #549

Just because its your property doesn't mean anything.................................. Jim Beard Apr 2017 #550

It depends on state law Locutusofborg Apr 2017 #554

Oklahoma law Locutusofborg Apr 2017 #555

They got it right on this one.................. Jim Beard Apr 2017 #556

No Charges Locutusofborg Apr 2017 #557

The homeowner will almost certainly be going to jail Lurks Often Apr 2017 #562

Correct. yagotme Apr 2017 #565

Textbook example of doing everything wrong in that example Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #568

"Warning shots" land somewhere Recursion Apr 2017 #569

I'm sure the shooter will be hailed as a hero and louis-t Apr 2017 #578

I don't know about "hero", yagotme Apr 2017 #581