General Discussion

Mike_Valentine

(35 posts)

194. Probably a result of my personal experience...

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 12:06 AM

Jul 2012

I've done a lot more nation building than I have combat.

Chai and smiling and meeting with people who often aren't very nice, usually don't smell that great and overall who can be incredibly offensive and corrupt.

I believe you that for straight combat, they could/did/would perform the same IOT protect their own hide and get home. What I don't think is that in the new era of COIN and its offshoots, that they can bring the same legitimate honesty that a volunteer can.

When I sit across the table from a tribal chief or a cop or a family, those people know that I stood up and offered up my time and left my family to come unfuck their situation. It's one of my biggest selling points.

They don't have it...

Maybe draftees can do some things but not all of em.

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McChrystal: Time To Bring Back The Draft [View all] L0oniX Jul 2012 OP

Maybe a war that requires a draft isn't a war worth fighting pwhtckll Jul 2012 #1

WW2 wasn't worth fighting? Odin2005 Jul 2012 #9

Lame reframe attempt. Did he say all "past" wars? L0oniX Jul 2012 #11

Was the draft necessary in WWII? pwhtckll Jul 2012 #16

Over Ten Million were drafted in WW II. former9thward Jul 2012 #22

That doesn't mean that we would have had 10 million fewer soldiers pwhtckll Jul 2012 #24

The Draft didn't end WWII, but it ended the Viet Nam Police Campaign against American Hostilities. bahrbearian Jul 2012 #40

The Vietnam war would have ended much sooner if we had had no draft. pnwmom Jul 2012 #54

So what is your point ,, I was a Discharged Coward because I refused to go, Whats your point? bahrbearian Jul 2012 #55

My point is that people who think returning to a draft will stop pointless wars pnwmom Jul 2012 #59

An absolutely spot on observation. 99Forever Jul 2012 #155

Thank you. Right on. There is NO way throwing more bodies into it stops wars and NO way there will uppityperson Jul 2012 #186

"the war machine. It doesn't care who protests." -- Exactly. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #210

Here's one VN vet draftee who is with you, pnwmom pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #197

Thanks for the stat, pinboy3niner. And your sadly realistic point of view. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #211

Pinboy, I must respectfully disagree with you. Vietnam popped our cherry as a nation, as coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #219

Do you really think the Romney kids would go into combat? Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #223

They could go into combat or go into the stockade, makes no diff to me. What they couldn't coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #226

Oh yeah, that would work. Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #229

In the spirit in which you post, those precious snow-flakes have coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #233

Their dad didn't, why would they? SammyWinstonJack Jul 2012 #268

When we had a draft, THOSE kids' asses were never on the line pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #224

Yeah, that's why I say Vietnam 'popped our cherry.' Back in the Civil War, the rich coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #228

If we draft the children of the rich and the upper middle-class, their coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #218

I will make ONE exception for college nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #264

You've got my vote. Your system would make for a far healthier coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #266

Illogical conclusion Country Tom Jul 2012 #97

Your logic is far worse pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #103

I remember that medical students got a deferal. It takes money to go to those kind of schools. L0oniX Jul 2012 #110

a lot of repubs got their kids into the national guard to avoid vietnam, like * dionysus Jul 2012 #123

That's one major reason why the 'rubbing shoulders' argument is so ridiculous pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #124

Yep I remember that now too. Sports players also had to maintain a high grade average... L0oniX Jul 2012 #133

I added a little more to my post pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #137

Excellent. L0oniX Jul 2012 #142

Oh I like that decal nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #144

And the guy who designed it? pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #149

Well, they'd have to pay for it nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #151

OMG ...and I have heard so much more from friends who made it back. L0oniX Jul 2012 #156

I didn't learn unti 20 years later that my first radioman killed himself shortly after he got back pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #183

Thank you for your service then -- and now. We need people who remember pnwmom Jul 2012 #212

Back then, I didn't want to remember pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #222

As they watched Union soldiers move in waves toward entrenched Confederate coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #225

Thank you for your service Aerows Jul 2012 #190

That decal makes me so sad and yet it belies your position that there should coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #221

That decal--which I put on my car--was our statement of defiance pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #230

I can get behind the mandatory national service program for all the reasons coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #232

Well, we know Alma's the smart one :) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #234

There was a good poverty draft article a couple years ago, but I can't find it now pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #236

Would love to rec just this post JustAnotherGen Jul 2012 #239

While I disagree with Pinboy on the merits of universal military conscription, I concur coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #220

The Vietnam war would have ended years earlier without the draft. It was the draft pnwmom Jul 2012 #193

you don't know that --- having "skin in the game" brought the war home & ended it wordpix Jul 2012 #128

The wealthy had very little skin in the game during the years of the draft. pnwmom Jul 2012 #195

Techncial note, but Vietnam went to 1975 (fall of Saigon to NLF and NVA forces). I think coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #231

We couldn't have sustained the numbers of deaths in Afghanistan pnwmom Jul 2012 #258

Hmm, that's an interesting hypothetical you raise. Were combat coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #259

I don't know where you get those numbers from Aerows Jul 2012 #189

The draft did not resume during Vietnam, kiva Jul 2012 #192

True. But draftees were not sent to Vietnam during the first several years. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #213

We had a peacetime draft long before we heard of Vietnam. nt raccoon Jul 2012 #272

No one can know, only speculate. former9thward Jul 2012 #42

Could you give me a link for that? kiva Jul 2012 #196

Yes former9thward Jul 2012 #270

Thank you, kiva Jul 2012 #286

I would like to see your source for that assertion, if you have it coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #260

Roosevelt gave an Executive Order former9thward Jul 2012 #271

Well, that's one year after our entry into World War II (not 'at the coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #283

the point is choie Jul 2012 #93

That's what happened during the Vietnam war. After the draft was started, pnwmom Jul 2012 #215

No. Forcing people to murder against their will is never worth it... Comrade_McKenzie Jul 2012 #297

Wow, you you would be OK with LETTING HITLER RUN RAMPANT? Odin2005 Jul 2012 #298

paying a few bucks is NOT a "sacrifice" on the same level in this discussion pasto76 Jul 2012 #91

Sacrifice is giving up something meaningful pwhtckll Jul 2012 #147

That ain't skin in the game nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #122

I'd rather bring back the daft BeyondGeography Jul 2012 #2

Well, I'll be darn nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #3

McChrystal is someone who puts the money where his mouth is. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #10

You mean he lives the warrior creed? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #12

He's definitely an interesting guy. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #15

McChrystal does not deserve choie Jul 2012 #98

"Warrior Creed" Iggy Jul 2012 #109

Actually not for berets and seals nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #112

I Get It But Iggy Jul 2012 #136

What they're doing nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #139

I heard he lied to Pat Tillman's mother and the rest of the family and the entire USA Jumping John Jul 2012 #46

That he did nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #73

That fact will forever taint whatever the General says and does.... Sienna86 Jul 2012 #94

Why I found that statement ahem...curious nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #125

There is zero doubt in my mind that a new draft will be abused.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #4

Fuck you McChrystal. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #5

That attitude is what I want to see happen all over the US. L0oniX Jul 2012 #7

+1 kristopher Jul 2012 #14

+2 Go Vols Jul 2012 #39

+3 mattclearing Jul 2012 #63

+brazillion nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #74

As long as the US military is isolated to volunteers people won't give a crap. AlbertCat Jul 2012 #86

absolutely loyalsister Jul 2012 #101

Sorry, but it took quite a few years of people dying in Viet Nam before people gave a damn, and that still_one Jul 2012 #165

complete and utter bullshit. bowens43 Jul 2012 #160

You can look up and see that some disagree with you. L0oniX Jul 2012 #172

Your son can protest the Draft ,avoid service and do the Patriotic thing and tell them to Fuck Off bahrbearian Jul 2012 #45

I'd help him. L0oniX Jul 2012 #49

I would support a draft with two conditions tularetom Jul 2012 #6

I agree. potone Jul 2012 #47

I agree with General McChrystal. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #8

Agreed Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #13

I think so, too. bluedigger Jul 2012 #17

17,725 draftees were killed in Vietnam (30.4 percent of all combat deaths) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #18

Hmmm interesting ...I thought the "total" was something over 85,000. L0oniX Jul 2012 #19

That's a good point about the length of our latest wars pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #35

They used super glue to patch them up back then. Of course there are less deaths... L0oniX Jul 2012 #43

It would mobilize them though nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #20

Nope nope nope... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #21

I agree with you ...professional killers are much better at it. L0oniX Jul 2012 #25

Excuse me? PavePusher Jul 2012 #107

Yes! pwhtckll Jul 2012 #27

Hate to point this out to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #134

And I made the same point in #52 pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #170

Probably a result of my personal experience... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #194

Where do you think COIN came from nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #198

COIN comes from many places... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #199

Again, who's going to get blamed this time? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #200

Agreed pwhtckll Jul 2012 #23

Multiple redeployment is not going to improve quality ...it will and does increase suicides though. L0oniX Jul 2012 #26

That's why we should question if the war is worth fighting. pwhtckll Jul 2012 #31

Imagine not knowing why you are over there fighting. L0oniX Jul 2012 #33

I don't have to imagine pwhtckll Jul 2012 #38

Says the guy who fought to end War , Right! bahrbearian Jul 2012 #51

i do believe in serving you country-whether armed forces or something else dembotoz Jul 2012 #28

A draft is costly, inefficient, produces poor soldiers, and is completely STUPID in this modern age. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #29

LMAO L0oniX Jul 2012 #30

or the Israeli army, I believe each citizen must serve some, iirc. Lionessa Jul 2012 #36

And they never ever have wars, certainly not unjust ones. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #114

I was responding to them being a dysfunctional military, that they are not, Lionessa Jul 2012 #127

By that standard nobody is an example for anything nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #161

The point is that people through around this notion that if we had a draft we wouldn't have so many Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #202

Yup you're right nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #204

What history am I ignoring? Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #206

Puregonzo1188's point is a good one pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #214

I did not say that nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #255

The rest of the history of what? Please tell me what history am I ignoring. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #274

Vietnam is the reason it's a stupid idea. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #67

self-delete pnwmom Jul 2012 #275

On this point I certainly agree with what L0onix posted above pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #52

Ever serve in the field with any ARVN draftees? How did that work out? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #150

No, I didn't work with the ARVN pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #159

That view about the ARVN draftees is not universally shared by combat vets, whether Army or Marine: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #167

I didn't characterize them, and I think generalizations about them are pretty meaningless pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #175

The difference between theory and practice. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #279

Ask the IDF, considered one of the top nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #78

And they've had their draft in place for as long as they've existed. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #99

It will cost the same million/ trooper you get for a nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #102

You are leaving out an incredibly high cost. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #115

It's not as high as you think nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #116

Then there's nowhere else for us to go in this discussioin GarroHorus Jul 2012 #126

I've been told this by full birds nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #145

"They worried of an anti war movement like Nam's." I hear that! L0oniX Jul 2012 #164

Israel is not a model for anything. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #118

As far as people claiming draftees are useless nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #121

Apartheid South Africa also had a policy of compulsory military service. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #201

A few NATO allies come to mind nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #203

The point is that you picked a country's whose foreign policy I doubt most people are very envious Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #207

Maybe it's time to down size the standing Army - hedgehog Jul 2012 #32

The Draft would downsize the Army,,if we keep occupying other Nations bahrbearian Jul 2012 #50

Better yet, bring the troops home, and quit with all the imperialism. Lionessa Jul 2012 #34

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #37

Exactly, It's time to end the endless War. think Jul 2012 #44

+1 pwhtckll Jul 2012 #48

+1000! SammyWinstonJack Jul 2012 #269

The only way we'll have a draft is if the volunteer force lacks sufficient numbers ... Martin Eden Jul 2012 #41

Anyone who would welcome a draft is welcome to volunteer right now. Please do so. pnwmom Jul 2012 #53

Breaking: We are in a war that has lasted longer than Vietnam with a volunteer military. L0oniX Jul 2012 #56

Breaking: We've had about 2030 U.S. military casualties in Afghanistan over the 11 years. pnwmom Jul 2012 #57

President Kennedy sent military troops to Vietnam as "advisors". L0oniX Jul 2012 #65

I never said they were draftees. But we lost tens of thousands AFTER the draft began, pnwmom Jul 2012 #68

"We are in a war that has lasted longer than Vietnam with a volunteer military" L0oniX Jul 2012 #81

The U.S. war in Vietnam lasted longer than we've been in Afghanistan. pnwmom Jul 2012 #100

Ignoring the link to the facts won't help you much... L0oniX Jul 2012 #119

I'm not disputing when we started to use draftees in Vietnam. I'm saying that we lost pnwmom Jul 2012 #148

I'll see your 2 wars and raise you a Bosnian/Serbian war. L0oniX Jul 2012 #162

That's why your first claim was so ridiculous. pnwmom Jul 2012 #181

Yea ...ok ...all of Afghanistan supported the terrorists ...and there were WMD's in Iraq too. L0oniX Jul 2012 #277

This message was self-deleted by its author wordpix Jul 2012 #132

...and many of those might have died if it were Vietnam instead. L0oniX Jul 2012 #138

For the VN War, the current total of U.S. military deaths is 58,282 pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #58

Thanks for the update, pinboy3niner. nt pnwmom Jul 2012 #61

You're welcome, pnwmom pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #79

And we'll never know how many have died as a consequence of their service dflprincess Jul 2012 #153

Neither do those who committed suicide nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #157

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #163

I'm sorry for your loss, dflprincess pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #166

You're right. The number of lives ruined is far higher than the numbers of deaths. pnwmom Jul 2012 #173

Thank you all dflprincess Jul 2012 #287

Hate to point this to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #77

+ an uncountable amount L0oniX Jul 2012 #82

The draft had been continuous since 1948, it didn't start up for Vietnam. braddy Jul 2012 #168

Wow, you are missing the whole point, and not worth explaining it to you! Logical Jul 2012 #178

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #282

Rocktivity: Time for McChrystal to STFU rocktivity Jul 2012 #60

Methinks the warmongers are running out of 'volunteers' canuckledragger Jul 2012 #62

There are plenty of the rah rah rah patriot types here. L0oniX Jul 2012 #72

Don't get me wrong canuckledragger Jul 2012 #105

The number drafted during the short Korean war, was almost equal to the Vietnam total. braddy Jul 2012 #174

Not so many as you might think, here pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #217

I am one of those killers ...I pay taxes which pay for the war. Get it? L0oniX Jul 2012 #262

Sorrier state of affairs is there are those who think that the only thing one can do in today's.... Clames Jul 2012 #291

Methinks you need to do a better job on keeping up with the news. Clames Jul 2012 #292

Between the ages of 18 and 26, Americans should be required to.. mrmpa Jul 2012 #64

All? Yea, well, then the first thing on your adjenda should be to eliminate the 13th Amendment. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #154

yes . lets turn all of our young people into slaves bowens43 Jul 2012 #158

Some if not many are already slaves to gov student loans...but that's another issue. L0oniX Jul 2012 #169

It ain't about slavery............ mrmpa Jul 2012 #208

Maybe we should end the wars. How many DUers who support this are draft age or have served Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #66

I support universal service of some kind.... including a draft. PavePusher Jul 2012 #117

you guess wrong... handmade34 Jul 2012 #130

I have served, I joined right out of HS as Vietnam was wound down. Educational bennies... haele Jul 2012 #141

They'll bring it back when they start the regional Middle East War (aka WW3) roamer65 Jul 2012 #69

We aren't in a war Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #70

No way Jose. We are NOT bringing back the draft. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #71

And you should not be forced to run to Canada as a fugitive criminal... pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #88

I think every citizen at the age of 18 should glowing Jul 2012 #75

Then you would welcome living in a country without the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #146

U would judge good works "servitude". glowing Jul 2012 #288

Let's see here: Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #227

Those who would serve now. And perhaps glowing Jul 2012 #289

What an odd argument, L0onix Scootaloo Jul 2012 #76

Nice reframe. L0oniX Jul 2012 #84

In a way, relying on a professional military may be accomplishing what you seek pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #96

Hey bro ...I don't want a draft but much more than that I want this war to end... L0oniX Jul 2012 #106

I simply repeated what you are saying, actually Scootaloo Jul 2012 #104

"IMO" is what it is. If you don't have a better solution then what are you trying to accomplish? L0oniX Jul 2012 #111

Great Idea HIlton Brackett Jul 2012 #80

No! Time To End Unnecessary Wars, McChrystal! Daphne08 Jul 2012 #83

Daphne08, you are so right! Kath1 Jul 2012 #108

hell no!! Sancho Jul 2012 #85

I have a better idea. RC Jul 2012 #87

THANK YOU. AND LET'S FACE THE REALITY OF THE PROFIT MOTIVE HERE, woo me with science Jul 2012 #284

What a Load of Crap Iggy Jul 2012 #89

An army of well armed civilians The Wizard Jul 2012 #90

Prepare to be attacked as a NRA luvn repuke. L0oniX Jul 2012 #92

A reasoned debate is OK The Wizard Jul 2012 #243

Israel has a related problem with ultra-orthodox jews who refuse to serve jody Jul 2012 #95

Might I suggest.... sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #113

+ a billion or 2 ...luv FDR too. L0oniX Jul 2012 #120

I like your idea wordpix Jul 2012 #129

This would work, if you don't mind the pesty 13th Amemdment to the Constitution: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #143

fine. What about Usury? sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #177

What about Usury? What does that mean? If you can draft Usury, then draft Usury. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #180

Agree with a National Service Corps - not just military, but all necessary skills - haele Jul 2012 #179

Twelve Steps for the Recovering American sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #209

My friend's nephew just had two legs blown off in Afghanistan wordpix Jul 2012 #131

...and no WMD's in Iraq. L0oniX Jul 2012 #135

The Viet Nam war ended after unhappy and despondent draftees began fragging officers and NCOs AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #140

This happened in WWII also. Kaleva Jul 2012 #176

I hear that. And not often enough. Zalatix Jul 2012 #241

what a stupid f*cking idea. bowens43 Jul 2012 #152

Funny thing about fishing . . . HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #171

The military would have to be greatly expanded to have an impact on every town and city. Kaleva Jul 2012 #182

No. Wrong. Hell no. Hell no. A couple reasons why hell no... uppityperson Jul 2012 #184

I'll see your "No. Wrong. Hell no" and raise it with this! Zalatix Jul 2012 #242

He's right, but it needs to be fair jaysunb Jul 2012 #185

How about instead getting better services and support for vets? Rather than making more to tax the uppityperson Jul 2012 #187

He's very correct Aerows Jul 2012 #188

Everyone? LeFleur1 Jul 2012 #191

Facts about the draft. kiva Jul 2012 #205

Good point about the number of "volunteers" during the Vietnam War Kolesar Jul 2012 #237

I support the draft but only for families making more than $250,000/year limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #216

I agree with Stanley madokie Jul 2012 #235

The only tangible good deed of my generation was ending the draft. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #238

If you're a BOOMER like me, I'd have to say no, we're still batting 1000 in the TrollBuster9090 Jul 2012 #245

Bring back the DRAFT?! Not just NO, but FUCKING HELL NO. Zalatix Jul 2012 #240

There wouldn't have been one single war since Vietnam if there'd been a draft. Furthermore.. TrollBuster9090 Jul 2012 #244

How about getting Congress to stop the wars, to not start more, instead? If you think they would uppityperson Jul 2012 #265

3. All members of the house sons and daughters must be drafted and the first to go. L0oniX Jul 2012 #280

Stop waging war for corporate profit, then we can talk about the draft RedCappedBandit Jul 2012 #246

Nonsense pipoman Jul 2012 #247

WTF!? Am in freeperville? Puzzledtraveller Jul 2012 #248

As a parent with a soon-to-be-college-age kid, that'd be a "hell NO" for me. HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #249

Supporters either dont have any kids to sacrifice Puzzledtraveller Jul 2012 #250

Our pizza is better than theirs. Try it sometime. mmmm good stuff. L0oniX Jul 2012 #278

How about we just avoid war? bluerum Jul 2012 #251

I read somewhere that out of America's 236 years in existence . . . . HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #253

Here's a couple of links: Nevernose Jul 2012 #273

Yep. You are probably right. Does not negate the option though. bluerum Jul 2012 #290

No Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2012 #252

I'll say one thing, if there was a draft people wouldn't be so blase as they have become WI_DEM Jul 2012 #254

Fine but instead of a draft lottery ... Ganja Ninja Jul 2012 #256

Wasn't the draft hated by those who had to go to war in Vietnam? Jennicut Jul 2012 #257

I disagree. I understand the logic, but I disagree. Taverner Jul 2012 #261

Orsino: Time to Stop Electing people Who Keep "Declaring" Wars We Don't Want to Fight Orsino Jul 2012 #263

Exactly! Thank you. That is a much better use of time, energy, bodies. uppityperson Jul 2012 #267

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #276

Thank you. It's time to face the fact that corporate money has corrupted woo me with science Jul 2012 #285

He is an asshole that wants to maintain what he knows, being one of the top Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #281

I don't think so, General. I don't want my son to die for corporate interests. KansDem Jul 2012 #293

Here is why a draft would be helpful . . . markpkessinger Jul 2012 #294

I see your point, however... KansDem Jul 2012 #296

Totally agree with him Dokkie Jul 2012 #295