General Discussion

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)

232. I can get behind the mandatory national service program for all the reasons

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 04:47 AM

Jul 2012

you detail and I fully respect your position and can't really say mine is any the stronger. I do think there would be far fewer wars if the rich had to worry that their kids might become casualties. But I don't want the kids of the rich to die or be maimed nor any kids for that matter.

Just now when I mentioned this thread to her, Alma reminded me that right now we actually have a 'poverty draft' in effect, as rural and inner-city kids often see their only pathway to the middle class as the military. I know that's not the same as conscription, technically speaking, but I think she has a point too. (Side note but I seem to recall Lyndie England saying she enlisted b/c the only job for her within 60 miles of where she lived in West Virginia was WalMart.)

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McChrystal: Time To Bring Back The Draft [View all] L0oniX Jul 2012 OP

Maybe a war that requires a draft isn't a war worth fighting pwhtckll Jul 2012 #1

WW2 wasn't worth fighting? Odin2005 Jul 2012 #9

Lame reframe attempt. Did he say all "past" wars? L0oniX Jul 2012 #11

Was the draft necessary in WWII? pwhtckll Jul 2012 #16

Over Ten Million were drafted in WW II. former9thward Jul 2012 #22

That doesn't mean that we would have had 10 million fewer soldiers pwhtckll Jul 2012 #24

The Draft didn't end WWII, but it ended the Viet Nam Police Campaign against American Hostilities. bahrbearian Jul 2012 #40

The Vietnam war would have ended much sooner if we had had no draft. pnwmom Jul 2012 #54

So what is your point ,, I was a Discharged Coward because I refused to go, Whats your point? bahrbearian Jul 2012 #55

My point is that people who think returning to a draft will stop pointless wars pnwmom Jul 2012 #59

An absolutely spot on observation. 99Forever Jul 2012 #155

Thank you. Right on. There is NO way throwing more bodies into it stops wars and NO way there will uppityperson Jul 2012 #186

"the war machine. It doesn't care who protests." -- Exactly. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #210

Here's one VN vet draftee who is with you, pnwmom pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #197

Thanks for the stat, pinboy3niner. And your sadly realistic point of view. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #211

Pinboy, I must respectfully disagree with you. Vietnam popped our cherry as a nation, as coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #219

Do you really think the Romney kids would go into combat? Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #223

They could go into combat or go into the stockade, makes no diff to me. What they couldn't coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #226

Oh yeah, that would work. Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #229

In the spirit in which you post, those precious snow-flakes have coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #233

Their dad didn't, why would they? SammyWinstonJack Jul 2012 #268

When we had a draft, THOSE kids' asses were never on the line pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #224

Yeah, that's why I say Vietnam 'popped our cherry.' Back in the Civil War, the rich coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #228

If we draft the children of the rich and the upper middle-class, their coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #218

I will make ONE exception for college nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #264

You've got my vote. Your system would make for a far healthier coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #266

Illogical conclusion Country Tom Jul 2012 #97

Your logic is far worse pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #103

I remember that medical students got a deferal. It takes money to go to those kind of schools. L0oniX Jul 2012 #110

a lot of repubs got their kids into the national guard to avoid vietnam, like * dionysus Jul 2012 #123

That's one major reason why the 'rubbing shoulders' argument is so ridiculous pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #124

Yep I remember that now too. Sports players also had to maintain a high grade average... L0oniX Jul 2012 #133

I added a little more to my post pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #137

Excellent. L0oniX Jul 2012 #142

Oh I like that decal nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #144

And the guy who designed it? pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #149

Well, they'd have to pay for it nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #151

OMG ...and I have heard so much more from friends who made it back. L0oniX Jul 2012 #156

I didn't learn unti 20 years later that my first radioman killed himself shortly after he got back pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #183

Thank you for your service then -- and now. We need people who remember pnwmom Jul 2012 #212

Back then, I didn't want to remember pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #222

As they watched Union soldiers move in waves toward entrenched Confederate coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #225

Thank you for your service Aerows Jul 2012 #190

That decal makes me so sad and yet it belies your position that there should coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #221

That decal--which I put on my car--was our statement of defiance pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #230

I can get behind the mandatory national service program for all the reasons coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #232

Well, we know Alma's the smart one :) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #234

There was a good poverty draft article a couple years ago, but I can't find it now pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #236

Would love to rec just this post JustAnotherGen Jul 2012 #239

While I disagree with Pinboy on the merits of universal military conscription, I concur coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #220

The Vietnam war would have ended years earlier without the draft. It was the draft pnwmom Jul 2012 #193

you don't know that --- having "skin in the game" brought the war home & ended it wordpix Jul 2012 #128

The wealthy had very little skin in the game during the years of the draft. pnwmom Jul 2012 #195

Techncial note, but Vietnam went to 1975 (fall of Saigon to NLF and NVA forces). I think coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #231

We couldn't have sustained the numbers of deaths in Afghanistan pnwmom Jul 2012 #258

Hmm, that's an interesting hypothetical you raise. Were combat coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #259

I don't know where you get those numbers from Aerows Jul 2012 #189

The draft did not resume during Vietnam, kiva Jul 2012 #192

True. But draftees were not sent to Vietnam during the first several years. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #213

We had a peacetime draft long before we heard of Vietnam. nt raccoon Jul 2012 #272

No one can know, only speculate. former9thward Jul 2012 #42

Could you give me a link for that? kiva Jul 2012 #196

Yes former9thward Jul 2012 #270

Thank you, kiva Jul 2012 #286

I would like to see your source for that assertion, if you have it coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #260

Roosevelt gave an Executive Order former9thward Jul 2012 #271

Well, that's one year after our entry into World War II (not 'at the coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #283

the point is choie Jul 2012 #93

That's what happened during the Vietnam war. After the draft was started, pnwmom Jul 2012 #215

No. Forcing people to murder against their will is never worth it... Comrade_McKenzie Jul 2012 #297

Wow, you you would be OK with LETTING HITLER RUN RAMPANT? Odin2005 Jul 2012 #298

paying a few bucks is NOT a "sacrifice" on the same level in this discussion pasto76 Jul 2012 #91

Sacrifice is giving up something meaningful pwhtckll Jul 2012 #147

That ain't skin in the game nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #122

I'd rather bring back the daft BeyondGeography Jul 2012 #2

Well, I'll be darn nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #3

McChrystal is someone who puts the money where his mouth is. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #10

You mean he lives the warrior creed? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #12

He's definitely an interesting guy. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #15

McChrystal does not deserve choie Jul 2012 #98

"Warrior Creed" Iggy Jul 2012 #109

Actually not for berets and seals nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #112

I Get It But Iggy Jul 2012 #136

What they're doing nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #139

I heard he lied to Pat Tillman's mother and the rest of the family and the entire USA Jumping John Jul 2012 #46

That he did nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #73

That fact will forever taint whatever the General says and does.... Sienna86 Jul 2012 #94

Why I found that statement ahem...curious nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #125

There is zero doubt in my mind that a new draft will be abused.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #4

Fuck you McChrystal. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #5

That attitude is what I want to see happen all over the US. L0oniX Jul 2012 #7

+1 kristopher Jul 2012 #14

+2 Go Vols Jul 2012 #39

+3 mattclearing Jul 2012 #63

+brazillion nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #74

As long as the US military is isolated to volunteers people won't give a crap. AlbertCat Jul 2012 #86

absolutely loyalsister Jul 2012 #101

Sorry, but it took quite a few years of people dying in Viet Nam before people gave a damn, and that still_one Jul 2012 #165

complete and utter bullshit. bowens43 Jul 2012 #160

You can look up and see that some disagree with you. L0oniX Jul 2012 #172

Your son can protest the Draft ,avoid service and do the Patriotic thing and tell them to Fuck Off bahrbearian Jul 2012 #45

I'd help him. L0oniX Jul 2012 #49

I would support a draft with two conditions tularetom Jul 2012 #6

I agree. potone Jul 2012 #47

I agree with General McChrystal. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #8

Agreed Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #13

I think so, too. bluedigger Jul 2012 #17

17,725 draftees were killed in Vietnam (30.4 percent of all combat deaths) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #18

Hmmm interesting ...I thought the "total" was something over 85,000. L0oniX Jul 2012 #19

That's a good point about the length of our latest wars pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #35

They used super glue to patch them up back then. Of course there are less deaths... L0oniX Jul 2012 #43

It would mobilize them though nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #20

Nope nope nope... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #21

I agree with you ...professional killers are much better at it. L0oniX Jul 2012 #25

Excuse me? PavePusher Jul 2012 #107

Yes! pwhtckll Jul 2012 #27

Hate to point this out to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #134

And I made the same point in #52 pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #170

Probably a result of my personal experience... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #194

Where do you think COIN came from nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #198

COIN comes from many places... Mike_Valentine Jul 2012 #199

Again, who's going to get blamed this time? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #200

Agreed pwhtckll Jul 2012 #23

Multiple redeployment is not going to improve quality ...it will and does increase suicides though. L0oniX Jul 2012 #26

That's why we should question if the war is worth fighting. pwhtckll Jul 2012 #31

Imagine not knowing why you are over there fighting. L0oniX Jul 2012 #33

I don't have to imagine pwhtckll Jul 2012 #38

Says the guy who fought to end War , Right! bahrbearian Jul 2012 #51

i do believe in serving you country-whether armed forces or something else dembotoz Jul 2012 #28

A draft is costly, inefficient, produces poor soldiers, and is completely STUPID in this modern age. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #29

LMAO L0oniX Jul 2012 #30

or the Israeli army, I believe each citizen must serve some, iirc. Lionessa Jul 2012 #36

And they never ever have wars, certainly not unjust ones. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #114

I was responding to them being a dysfunctional military, that they are not, Lionessa Jul 2012 #127

By that standard nobody is an example for anything nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #161

The point is that people through around this notion that if we had a draft we wouldn't have so many Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #202

Yup you're right nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #204

What history am I ignoring? Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #206

Puregonzo1188's point is a good one pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #214

I did not say that nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #255

The rest of the history of what? Please tell me what history am I ignoring. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #274

Vietnam is the reason it's a stupid idea. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #67

self-delete pnwmom Jul 2012 #275

On this point I certainly agree with what L0onix posted above pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #52

Ever serve in the field with any ARVN draftees? How did that work out? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #150

No, I didn't work with the ARVN pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #159

That view about the ARVN draftees is not universally shared by combat vets, whether Army or Marine: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #167

I didn't characterize them, and I think generalizations about them are pretty meaningless pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #175

The difference between theory and practice. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #279

Ask the IDF, considered one of the top nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #78

And they've had their draft in place for as long as they've existed. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #99

It will cost the same million/ trooper you get for a nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #102

You are leaving out an incredibly high cost. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #115

It's not as high as you think nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #116

Then there's nowhere else for us to go in this discussioin GarroHorus Jul 2012 #126

I've been told this by full birds nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #145

"They worried of an anti war movement like Nam's." I hear that! L0oniX Jul 2012 #164

Israel is not a model for anything. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #118

As far as people claiming draftees are useless nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #121

Apartheid South Africa also had a policy of compulsory military service. Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #201

A few NATO allies come to mind nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #203

The point is that you picked a country's whose foreign policy I doubt most people are very envious Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #207

Maybe it's time to down size the standing Army - hedgehog Jul 2012 #32

The Draft would downsize the Army,,if we keep occupying other Nations bahrbearian Jul 2012 #50

Better yet, bring the troops home, and quit with all the imperialism. Lionessa Jul 2012 #34

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #37

Exactly, It's time to end the endless War. think Jul 2012 #44

+1 pwhtckll Jul 2012 #48

+1000! SammyWinstonJack Jul 2012 #269

The only way we'll have a draft is if the volunteer force lacks sufficient numbers ... Martin Eden Jul 2012 #41

Anyone who would welcome a draft is welcome to volunteer right now. Please do so. pnwmom Jul 2012 #53

Breaking: We are in a war that has lasted longer than Vietnam with a volunteer military. L0oniX Jul 2012 #56

Breaking: We've had about 2030 U.S. military casualties in Afghanistan over the 11 years. pnwmom Jul 2012 #57

President Kennedy sent military troops to Vietnam as "advisors". L0oniX Jul 2012 #65

I never said they were draftees. But we lost tens of thousands AFTER the draft began, pnwmom Jul 2012 #68

"We are in a war that has lasted longer than Vietnam with a volunteer military" L0oniX Jul 2012 #81

The U.S. war in Vietnam lasted longer than we've been in Afghanistan. pnwmom Jul 2012 #100

Ignoring the link to the facts won't help you much... L0oniX Jul 2012 #119

I'm not disputing when we started to use draftees in Vietnam. I'm saying that we lost pnwmom Jul 2012 #148

I'll see your 2 wars and raise you a Bosnian/Serbian war. L0oniX Jul 2012 #162

That's why your first claim was so ridiculous. pnwmom Jul 2012 #181

Yea ...ok ...all of Afghanistan supported the terrorists ...and there were WMD's in Iraq too. L0oniX Jul 2012 #277

This message was self-deleted by its author wordpix Jul 2012 #132

...and many of those might have died if it were Vietnam instead. L0oniX Jul 2012 #138

For the VN War, the current total of U.S. military deaths is 58,282 pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #58

Thanks for the update, pinboy3niner. nt pnwmom Jul 2012 #61

You're welcome, pnwmom pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #79

And we'll never know how many have died as a consequence of their service dflprincess Jul 2012 #153

Neither do those who committed suicide nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #157

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #163

I'm sorry for your loss, dflprincess pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #166

You're right. The number of lives ruined is far higher than the numbers of deaths. pnwmom Jul 2012 #173

Thank you all dflprincess Jul 2012 #287

Hate to point this to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #77

+ an uncountable amount L0oniX Jul 2012 #82

The draft had been continuous since 1948, it didn't start up for Vietnam. braddy Jul 2012 #168

Wow, you are missing the whole point, and not worth explaining it to you! Logical Jul 2012 #178

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #282

Rocktivity: Time for McChrystal to STFU rocktivity Jul 2012 #60

Methinks the warmongers are running out of 'volunteers' canuckledragger Jul 2012 #62

There are plenty of the rah rah rah patriot types here. L0oniX Jul 2012 #72

Don't get me wrong canuckledragger Jul 2012 #105

The number drafted during the short Korean war, was almost equal to the Vietnam total. braddy Jul 2012 #174

Not so many as you might think, here pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #217

I am one of those killers ...I pay taxes which pay for the war. Get it? L0oniX Jul 2012 #262

Sorrier state of affairs is there are those who think that the only thing one can do in today's.... Clames Jul 2012 #291

Methinks you need to do a better job on keeping up with the news. Clames Jul 2012 #292

Between the ages of 18 and 26, Americans should be required to.. mrmpa Jul 2012 #64

All? Yea, well, then the first thing on your adjenda should be to eliminate the 13th Amendment. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #154

yes . lets turn all of our young people into slaves bowens43 Jul 2012 #158

Some if not many are already slaves to gov student loans...but that's another issue. L0oniX Jul 2012 #169

It ain't about slavery............ mrmpa Jul 2012 #208

Maybe we should end the wars. How many DUers who support this are draft age or have served Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #66

I support universal service of some kind.... including a draft. PavePusher Jul 2012 #117

you guess wrong... handmade34 Jul 2012 #130

I have served, I joined right out of HS as Vietnam was wound down. Educational bennies... haele Jul 2012 #141

They'll bring it back when they start the regional Middle East War (aka WW3) roamer65 Jul 2012 #69

We aren't in a war Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #70

No way Jose. We are NOT bringing back the draft. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #71

And you should not be forced to run to Canada as a fugitive criminal... pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #88

I think every citizen at the age of 18 should glowing Jul 2012 #75

Then you would welcome living in a country without the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #146

U would judge good works "servitude". glowing Jul 2012 #288

Let's see here: Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #227

Those who would serve now. And perhaps glowing Jul 2012 #289

What an odd argument, L0onix Scootaloo Jul 2012 #76

Nice reframe. L0oniX Jul 2012 #84

In a way, relying on a professional military may be accomplishing what you seek pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #96

Hey bro ...I don't want a draft but much more than that I want this war to end... L0oniX Jul 2012 #106

I simply repeated what you are saying, actually Scootaloo Jul 2012 #104

"IMO" is what it is. If you don't have a better solution then what are you trying to accomplish? L0oniX Jul 2012 #111

Great Idea HIlton Brackett Jul 2012 #80

No! Time To End Unnecessary Wars, McChrystal! Daphne08 Jul 2012 #83

Daphne08, you are so right! Kath1 Jul 2012 #108

hell no!! Sancho Jul 2012 #85

I have a better idea. RC Jul 2012 #87

THANK YOU. AND LET'S FACE THE REALITY OF THE PROFIT MOTIVE HERE, woo me with science Jul 2012 #284

What a Load of Crap Iggy Jul 2012 #89

An army of well armed civilians The Wizard Jul 2012 #90

Prepare to be attacked as a NRA luvn repuke. L0oniX Jul 2012 #92

A reasoned debate is OK The Wizard Jul 2012 #243

Israel has a related problem with ultra-orthodox jews who refuse to serve jody Jul 2012 #95

Might I suggest.... sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #113

+ a billion or 2 ...luv FDR too. L0oniX Jul 2012 #120

I like your idea wordpix Jul 2012 #129

This would work, if you don't mind the pesty 13th Amemdment to the Constitution: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #143

fine. What about Usury? sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #177

What about Usury? What does that mean? If you can draft Usury, then draft Usury. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #180

Agree with a National Service Corps - not just military, but all necessary skills - haele Jul 2012 #179

Twelve Steps for the Recovering American sgtbenobo Jul 2012 #209

My friend's nephew just had two legs blown off in Afghanistan wordpix Jul 2012 #131

...and no WMD's in Iraq. L0oniX Jul 2012 #135

The Viet Nam war ended after unhappy and despondent draftees began fragging officers and NCOs AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #140

This happened in WWII also. Kaleva Jul 2012 #176

I hear that. And not often enough. Zalatix Jul 2012 #241

what a stupid f*cking idea. bowens43 Jul 2012 #152

Funny thing about fishing . . . HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #171

The military would have to be greatly expanded to have an impact on every town and city. Kaleva Jul 2012 #182

No. Wrong. Hell no. Hell no. A couple reasons why hell no... uppityperson Jul 2012 #184

I'll see your "No. Wrong. Hell no" and raise it with this! Zalatix Jul 2012 #242

He's right, but it needs to be fair jaysunb Jul 2012 #185

How about instead getting better services and support for vets? Rather than making more to tax the uppityperson Jul 2012 #187

He's very correct Aerows Jul 2012 #188

Everyone? LeFleur1 Jul 2012 #191

Facts about the draft. kiva Jul 2012 #205

Good point about the number of "volunteers" during the Vietnam War Kolesar Jul 2012 #237

I support the draft but only for families making more than $250,000/year limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #216

I agree with Stanley madokie Jul 2012 #235

The only tangible good deed of my generation was ending the draft. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #238

If you're a BOOMER like me, I'd have to say no, we're still batting 1000 in the TrollBuster9090 Jul 2012 #245

Bring back the DRAFT?! Not just NO, but FUCKING HELL NO. Zalatix Jul 2012 #240

There wouldn't have been one single war since Vietnam if there'd been a draft. Furthermore.. TrollBuster9090 Jul 2012 #244

How about getting Congress to stop the wars, to not start more, instead? If you think they would uppityperson Jul 2012 #265

3. All members of the house sons and daughters must be drafted and the first to go. L0oniX Jul 2012 #280

Stop waging war for corporate profit, then we can talk about the draft RedCappedBandit Jul 2012 #246

Nonsense pipoman Jul 2012 #247

WTF!? Am in freeperville? Puzzledtraveller Jul 2012 #248

As a parent with a soon-to-be-college-age kid, that'd be a "hell NO" for me. HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #249

Supporters either dont have any kids to sacrifice Puzzledtraveller Jul 2012 #250

Our pizza is better than theirs. Try it sometime. mmmm good stuff. L0oniX Jul 2012 #278

How about we just avoid war? bluerum Jul 2012 #251

I read somewhere that out of America's 236 years in existence . . . . HughBeaumont Jul 2012 #253

Here's a couple of links: Nevernose Jul 2012 #273

Yep. You are probably right. Does not negate the option though. bluerum Jul 2012 #290

No Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2012 #252

I'll say one thing, if there was a draft people wouldn't be so blase as they have become WI_DEM Jul 2012 #254

Fine but instead of a draft lottery ... Ganja Ninja Jul 2012 #256

Wasn't the draft hated by those who had to go to war in Vietnam? Jennicut Jul 2012 #257

I disagree. I understand the logic, but I disagree. Taverner Jul 2012 #261

Orsino: Time to Stop Electing people Who Keep "Declaring" Wars We Don't Want to Fight Orsino Jul 2012 #263

Exactly! Thank you. That is a much better use of time, energy, bodies. uppityperson Jul 2012 #267

+1 L0oniX Jul 2012 #276

Thank you. It's time to face the fact that corporate money has corrupted woo me with science Jul 2012 #285

He is an asshole that wants to maintain what he knows, being one of the top Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #281

I don't think so, General. I don't want my son to die for corporate interests. KansDem Jul 2012 #293

Here is why a draft would be helpful . . . markpkessinger Jul 2012 #294

I see your point, however... KansDem Jul 2012 #296

Totally agree with him Dokkie Jul 2012 #295